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12V battery, maybe damaged by shop?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by rocketrob, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Long story short ... I took my car to be tinted and I think the tint shop ran down the 12V battery and then "jumped" it without my knowledge. How do I know? I replaced the factory battery myself with a Optima yellow top back in August without any problems. Then I got windows tinted in October. A few weeks later my car begins showing signs of low 12V battery (i have other posts on this). So I go into the rear compartment to check battery connections and find that (1) a plastic tab has been broken off the trunk decking that covers the battery, and (2) the red plastic cap that covers the positive terminal has been yanked up and bent out of shape. The tint shop is the ONLY place my car has been since replacing the battery myself. And I definitely did not leave it in that condition.

    Now, some questions:
    1. Could the new battery now be damaged if improperly charged? (like not trickle charged) How would I test?
    2. Why might it have taken 3 weeks for the battery to show signs of loss of charge?
    3. Are any other electronics or circuitry put at risk if the 12V is improperly charge? If so, what?

    Thanks for any feedback. I'm annoyed.
     
  2. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    1. Yes. The battery could have been cooked by a high amperage charge. There isn't much to test, other than load testing the battery. Even if it is damaged, good luck proving that the tint shop did it. You can confront them, but if they don't come clean you don't have much of a case.

    2. The tint shop may have mortally wounded your battery without killing it outright. It may have taken this long to finally die.

    3. Any and all electronics in your Prius can be damaged by a bad jump. A few posters have caused thousands of dollars in damage by reverse jumping. Fortunately, this wasn't done to yours, or it wouldn't be running.

    Tom
     
  3. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yeah they definitely must have had to either charge or jump it. No real chance of both those things you mention happening all by themselves. They must not have known about the front jumper terminals and they also must not have known how to remove the rear deck piece that covers the battery either. My guess is that they tried to just lever it up from the front (instead of disengaging the little flap at the back of the piece and lifting it from there, as I'm sure you know).

    You mention measuring the battery voltage via the service menu in your other thread. Can you tell us what the voltages are:

    1. Accessory mode (hit power button once without foot on the brake).
    2. Ignition-on mode (hit the power button a second time, again without foot on the brake).
    3. Ready mode (hit the power button again, but this time with foot on the brake).

    BTW. To avoid anomalous results do the test after the car has been sitting (off) for at least a few hours.
     
  4. PriusGuy32

    PriusGuy32 Prius Driver Extraordinaire

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    If you think they cooked the battery, I'd just go and do a warranty exchange on it (not saying anything about what happened) because like somebody else said - good luck getting them to admit any wrongdoing.

    When I had my windows tinted last month, I disabled all of the dome lights #1 and asked the tech to leave the car on "Ready" mode, per the advice of people here.
     
  5. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Thanks for the responses. I think my 12V battery is cooked. Crossing my fingers that nothing else was damaged, aside from some bent up plastic bits in the trunk when they forced their way into the battery compartment.

    One more related question. Is it normal to see the red warning triangle* (!), even briefly, at startup? I don't recall ever seeing that until recently. I know the other warning lights flash on at startup, but I thought the triangle-of-death does not illuminate. (somewhat confirmed by this thread)

    Ugh. trying to figure out what these idiot tint guys did is giving me a conniption fit. I just bought a trickle charger from Sears. Now to give the 12V a good charge then see if it holds.
     
  6. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    When I bought my car new in 07 I had it tinted a month later and they did the same thing to my car.
    They put it in accessory mode (no foot on brake on push of start button) and it will run the radio till the 12 volt dies. Mine came back since it was so new 5 years ago. Your probably not so lucky.

    The red exclamation point in parenthesis pops up if the 12 volt sags below 11 volts I think. It does not log a CEL and goes away when the car starts. Mine threw that a few moths back when my very well tended original 12 battery just started going bad. I put a Yellowtop in it.

    Put it on a 12 volt charger in 2 amp mode. It should charge a healthy battery in about 20 mins to O current draw.
    If yours refuses to go to 0 current draw or takes much longer than that to fully charged its sulphated. May be worth the money to but a nice battery charger with anti sulphation mode.

    I like alot of people here routinely put on Prius battery's on a charger monthly. Bring it to full charge which it will not see on a prius with its parasitic load. Good for the battery and good for you as you can track the batterys health.
     
  7. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Hi Rob, I just checked and I definitely don't see the <!-triangle> even briefly at start up. I see all the other warning light come on briefly and then go off, but not the master warning.

    Perhaps it means there is a pending code (like a non critical one) or something.

    Re my previous post Rob. Could you please tell us what your measured battery voltages are?
     
  8. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Thanks for the responses. Have I mentioned how great this community is?

    I will definitely report battery voltages after I check tomorrow morning (~12 hours from now). I drove around all day today so any readings now could be misleading. I should let the car sit for a few hours.

    Also FYI, here is the cheapie trickle charger from Sears that I picked up today. It ought to do the trick(le) ;) . First I'm charging up the factory battery that I replaced in August and has been sitting in my garage since. A bit of a test before connecting it to the car.

    I'm disappointed that the tint job I was excited to (finally) get done has now left a sour taste in my mouth. I will consider myself lucky if it's only the battery that was damaged. I hate that the tint shop did not fess up and needlessly caused damage. Plus, I'm completely type-A about things so this is driving me bonkers.
     
  9. PriusGuy32

    PriusGuy32 Prius Driver Extraordinaire

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    I have the same trickle charger (well - the Schumacher version, I heard the Sears and Schumacher are the same thing) and it works great. I used the ring connectors to permanently wire it in to the battery and leave the wire harness sticking up from the little carpeted cover that goes over the battery. About 1x every 2 weeks or so I hook it up for a night and let it maintain the battery.
     
  10. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Alright, I let the car sit overnight. As expected, the voltage readings are quite low, especially considering this is a new 12V Yellow Top. I took readings using MFD in maintenance mode and via ScanGuage.

    1. 9.7V MFD | 9.6V Scanguage
    2. n/a - the MFD actually shut off! Presumably because voltage was too low. | 8.8V Scangauge
    3. 14.3V MFD | 13.9V Scanguage

    Next step, tonight I will trickle charge the 12V overnight allowing it to reach full charge (I think I recall someone saying that 12.9V is the maximum). Then I will drive normally for a couple days and report voltages again. I expect the battery is ruined and it will only temporarily hold a full charge.

    Seems like a forgone conclusion that the battery needs to be replaced. Only after that will I be able to determine if any additional damage has been done to electronics, etc. I sure hope not. This stinks.
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The 4A setting of your charger might do something for your 12V battery considering how low measurement #1 is.

    Most likely though, the battery is toast and will need replacement.
     
  12. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yep, especially seeing as you drove a lot yesterday to charge it, that battery is toast. Well since you've got the charger then you may as well give it a try, but I don't hold out much hope for a long term solution, not by look of those readings. :(

    The good news is that your charging voltage (step 3) is good, so very likely there is no damage to the inverter/dc-dc converter. It looks like the battery (and plastic clips) are the only things they fubared, soI think everything (including the <!> warning at startup) will be back to normal after you replace the 12V battery.
     
  13. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Great tip! I noticed the ring connectors in the box and had the same idea. Nice to hear from someone already doing it with good results.
     
  14. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Whew. I sure hope you are right.

    Status update: The battery completed charging this afternoon/evening. It took ~6 hours. After it finished I checked voltages as before and readings were nominal (but I left the sticky note in the car). The dome lights were noticeably brighter, the car started without <!-triangle>, and all the various pumps and motors just sounded more peppy, both at startup and shutdown.

    I'm now going to let it sit overnight without the charger and then re-check voltages in the morning before driving to work. I'm expecting to see a low battery in the morning. I'm curious how much parasitic or "vampire" draw is normal for a Prius, and how much charge is lost simply due to a toasted battery. A question for a later time ...
     
  15. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    Even at the 4amp/hr rate of charge the battery should not be fully charged after 6 hrs from being well below what is considered to be fully discharged (10.6 volts). If everything was 100% efficient 6 hrs at 4 amps would give you 24amp/hrs on a battery rated I believe at 36 amp/hrs, so I would think the battery you have is in poor condition.
     
  16. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Quick update: I replaced the 12V battery and everything seems to be back to normal. The car powers up without the <! triangle>, no more "pulsing" feedback in the brake pedal, and all voltage reading on the 12V are within tolerance. (12.5 or so in Acc-Only). There appears to be no other damage.

    I also followed PriusGuy32's suggestion and attached the ring connector wire harness kit that came with the trickle charger and left the connector sticking out of the floor cover for easy access. I topped off the replacement 12V battery before starting up. Works great.

    (An aside, I stopped by my local Toyota Dealership over the weekend to inquire about odd startup behavior indicative of a failing 12V battery. The service tech stated that <! triangle> at startup was "normal". Based on discussion here I don't think that is correct.)

    I went back to the tint shop to sort out the situation with the owner and left them with some advice on how to (or how NOT to) treat Prius while working. I'm certain they drained the 12V battery while working on my car, then applied too many Amps to quickly recharge the 12V battery, directly to the battery terminals, which ruined the battery. (They didn't know about the battery terminal under the hood).

    Thanks all for the helpful assistance. This was a good learning experience.
     
  17. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    It makes no difference if the battery is charged from under the hood or directly at the battery but the charge current limit for the OEM battery is 4amps, anything higher than this will cook it. It is not like a normal lead acid battery that can withstand high charge rates.
     
  18. rocketrob

    rocketrob Member

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    Aren't there fuses between the jump point and battery that would be bypassed if charging directly to the battery terminals?
     
  19. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    There is only one fuse in the line to the jump point and that is in the red plastic cover over the battery terminal rated at 120 amps. Fuses do not limit the current flow unless there rating is exceeded by a large margin and the blow. This can be as high as 100% depending on the type of fuse.