Electric Cars Are Doing Just Fine

You are describing the definition of an EREV, all electric with full performance until battery is low, then hybrid. EREV does not state how the hybrid mode provides power.

The serial/parallel describes the hybrid function -- how are the two fuel sources used --

Serial hybrids uses them in order, i.e. fuel-based generator to EV motor.

Parallel hybrids cannot disconnect the ICE from the drivetrain, the two fuels are used in parallel (powers-split like Prius).

Parallel/serial hybrids (i.e. volt) can do both depending on how the clutches are configured.

 

Okay, I suspected that's what you meant but wasn't sure. It looks like we're in agreement on preferring a full EV experience before falling back on gasoline as the default strategy.

As for the hybrid market, we will just have to wait and see what happens but I think we both agree that the real loser is the conventional gasoline engine and transmission.

 

Toyota Echo? Please, a subcompact car?...
And Metro (also a subcompact) was autobox?

And I agree with value and performance increase across generations. But at the time, we must see all the picture, not skewing results.

 

Less chuckle than Volt CS mode.

 

Agree.

 

The public recharging stations - especially along the interstate highways/toll roads AND batteries will need to evolve to an energy density similar to that of gasoline- if the EV market is to go mainstream.

The Volt and the Prius Plug-in (PHEV) are basically a hybrid (HEV) on steroids.

However, just like pro athletes are a small segment of the human population - I suspect that the PHEVs will be a small segment of the HEV population.

As the price of a vehicle gets more expensive (i.e. goes beyond an MSRP of $36,000) more and more buyers are likely opt for luxury, performance, and size over operational reliability and fuel efficiency. So a Volt's higher MSRP means that it needs to provide more luxury and performance to win over buyers. While the Plug in Prius' lower MSRP means it needs to provide a lower operational cost and higher energy efficiency to win over buyers. The Volt's energy efficiency is best when the daily commute is under 30 miles round trip ( given only one recharge per day and the top speed is under 60 mph[*] )The Plugin Prius energy efficiency matches the Volt's when the daily commute is under 10 miles round trip and beats the Volt when the daily commute is over 40 miles round trip(given only one recharge per day and the top speed is under 60mph[*]). Without incentives, WRT to the MRSP, the Prius Plug-in and the Volt cover different spectrums of the same sub-segment market, i.e. to say they really don't compete with each other - rather they serve complementing markets.

[*] IIRC - At somewhere over 60 mph, regardless of the state of charge of the battery, both the the Volt and the Prius-Plug will automatically run the ICE/gasoline engine to provide additional power to the electric motors because its is more fuel efficient to do so.

 

I disagree with your first quoted statement. But I see where your mistake is.
I do not believe the Volt switches over to gas at any point simply due to speed.
I would agree that the PiP is a hybrid on steroids, however I haven't driven one yet so I am not sure if you are correct there either.
With the Volt you get most of the pure joy of the electric drive experience. I would definitely say it is much more than a hybrid on steroids.

 

A few corrections...

The volt's ideal daily commute is what fits in its battery range, so 38 EPA miles is ideal for a 2013. My commute is 36 (to 45 depending on errands) and I do it in my 2011 on just battery all the time.

The volt has full speed/performance in EV.. with both EV/ICE limited electronically to 100mph.

The Volt will use less gas for much longer commutes than you suggest.
The PiP is EPA rates at 11 miles EV 49hwy,51City. The Volt is EPA rated at 38 miles EV 35City, 40 Hwy. Most long commutes are not "city" driving expect at the ends. If one uses the EV miles for the "city" part on a longer commute most of it is highway. At 150 miles Volt would use (150-38)/40 =2.8 gallons for the commute. The PiP would use 2.84 gallons.
Very few people commute more than 150 miles in a day. At shorter range 75 or even 100 miles, Volt's advantage is even greater, e.g. it would use 40% less gas on a 75mile commute.

People care mostly about the price they pay, not the price without incentives. The price difference after incentives is about $2500 in most states (even less in others), so they do compete with each other.

 

The PiP must be on cortico steroids and the Volt on anabolic steroids.

Unfortunatly many Prius owners will fall victim to the non-EV direction that Toyota is taking. The marginal PiP EV experience could discourage a lot of Prius fans from considering a real BEV or EREV.

walter lee is an excellent example of the mis-perceptions or mis-understanding of the BEV and EREV offerings.

 

I'm not sure what is unfair. The interior and cargo volume echo and gen I prius are similar. I used the metro as the fuel economy champ, and we all know smaller causes cd to rise, so subcompact has no mpg benefit over compact.

Here is where the comparison came from.
2001 Toyota Prius - Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

Since then there has been a marked improvement on acceleration, handling, fuel economy, comfort has increased, while adjusted for inflation price for similar equipment levels have dropped. I would expect that given time the plug-ins will also improve in many catagories. They did not start with inferior handling, which means mainly only changes with batteries are needed.

For the problems mentioned in the car and driver quote, toyota has changed to a more powerful ice and ehr to shut down the engine in the cold, and electronic air conditioning to allow defrost and air conditioning to run with the engine off. The volume in electronic air conditioning helps drop the price for plug-ins that need this feature. The 2013 leaf is adding a more efficient heat pump and heated seats to all seats to in increase efficiency in cold weather.

 

Thanks! I always enjoy giving "Car and Driver" a whack:

Source: 2001 Toyota Prius - Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver
This chart shows how well "Car and Driver" drove the 2001 Prius compared to a decade of NHW11 Prius owners:



Similar charts can be generated using "Consumer Reports" reviews. We have at least two corrupt or incompetent, auto magazines, "Car and Driver" and "Consumer Reports" who are incapable of accurately evaluating the expected mileage of hybrid cars. They are to hybrid cars what Playboy is to women or Esquire is to clothing . . . at too often pimps pushing a car fantasy having nothing to do with empirical reality.

Bob Wilson

 

No need to further explain.

Quote your post:
Subcompact has no mpg benefit over compact...

You can keep skewing, but you might have less readers.

 

Most of the plugin sales I personally know about are Prius owners 'upgrading' to a plug in. This isn't cannibalization, since they sold their Prius on the used market, and probably bought before they might have otherwise. From Toyota's standpoint, this is more of their cars on the road, and more money in their pocket. No complaints.

 

What you describe is pretty much what is known as cannibalization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalization_(marketing)

It does not necessarily mean more money in the pockets of Toyota if the margin on the PiP is less than the Prius, which a Totota executive has indicated is the the case for the PiP.

 

Which says: "In marketing strategy, cannibalization refers to a reduction in sales volume, sales revenue, or market share of one product as a result of the introduction of a new product by the same producer."

What I described is NOT a reduction in sales of Prius. The person was NOT looking to buy a new Prius. They bought a new car ONLY because it was 'better' than their current car. Thus, Toyota is selling MORE cars, not the same number. This is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalty_marketing
and / or:
Fashion Marketing

 

Wow, I didn't mean to go that far off in the woods. My point was that the gen I prius, like today's plug-ins didn't sell all that well. That the car and value proposition improved, and so did sales. When the gen I prius came out it appealed to initial adopters and environmentalists, and I was trying to use the car and driver piece to refresh memories.

Bob, your in a good position to evaluate this opinion, since you own(ed) a gen I and III prius and an echo. Do you agree with C&D that the echo and gen I are about the same size inside, and that the gen I was much more expensive and slower to accelerate? Do you see the gen III as a better value with the great technology improved?

As to the other stuff, I would disagree that C&D is the same as CR, while I would agree that their mileage estimates are similar. C&D was careful to point out the epa, and included toyota's explanation about cold weather affecting performance. Since then they have been clear that the way they drive hybrids is not typical of a hybrid driver. They don't try to tell you that your mileage will be there mileage. Furher, they seemed to give the gen I prius a very positive review.

 

• $14,250 Echo 2001 vs $22,000 Prius 2001 - bought Echo in 2001
• 32 MPG all we ever got from Echo - autotrans, electric locks, cruise control (not on Prius)
• After driving 2003 Prius for years, almost tipped over Echo taking a turn at Prius speed
• Sold Echo $3,000 in 2009 with just under 30,000 miles - used it to help buy 2010 Prius
• Echo and NHW11 Prius had similar internal volume - fold-down rear seats of Echo were a plus and it didn't have the battery hump.
• Echo had good acceleration but Prius was first off the line (nice electric motor!)

It was the '35 miles and change' snark that came across and hit a sore spot. I have a fair understanding of NHW11 Prius MPG performance (probably could have drawn the graph from memory from the old GreenHybrid.com database.) In my old age, I'm not so tolerant of hybrid-skeptics and that article from 2001 was so typical of the trash-talk about the Prius. On any other day, I'd have probably passed but I did take wicked delight in showing how wrong he was. Still, I probably should have left the Playboy and Esquire references out.

Bob Wilson

 

No intention to skew or distort. Here it is from someone that owned both cars, if you don't believe car and driver. The room in the echo which you are calling subcompact was not significantly different than the gen I prius that you are calling compact.

As to subcompacts getting better mileage than compacts, simply look at the figures, they don't today if you are considering US EPA cycle. Subcompact form factor normally hurts cd which increases consumption on the highway. On easier slower tests like Japanese JCO8 subcompacts may come out ahead. The reason to buy a sub compact is for lower cost or parking not for mpg.

Now that you have thrice accused me of purposely distorting things can we get the discussion back on track.

 

Local Electric Car Owners To Pay $100 Fee Each Year!
SEATTLE (AP) — Owners of electric cars in Washington state don’t pay gasoline or gas taxes, but they’re soon going to be hit with a $100 fee to own the battery-operated cars.

Owners will pay the $100 fee at the same time as their annual registration renewal, in addition to regular registration fees. Washington's tax rate on a gallon of gas is 37.5 cents (in addition to the federal 18.4c/gallon). Local Electric Car Owners To Pay $100 Fee Each Year « CBS Seattle
.

 

You may not have purposely distorted, but you can try to pay less attention to some sources, and also keep tracked on facts.
Some facts like - highway MPG is not overall MPG, and lower weight of a subcompact doesn't hurt MPG on transient operation and rolling drag...
Ok, discussion on track from now on.