Poor, poor Oil Companies.

EricGo has a good point, we need to target more funds, lots more, to alternative energy, and now, not later. Allthough I'm afraid we wont see it happen under the current administration.

Galaxee though also has an extreemly good point, if we simply raise "gas taxes" the people on the lower end of the economic scale will suffer unduly.

So, what is the solution? How many new gas hogs do you see on the road on any given day? People are still buying them, agreed somewhat less than a year or two ago, but they are still selling. What percentage of these are really needed, maybe 10? If I have to haul something that doesn't fit in the Prius, I can rent from U-Haul for a half day (been there done that).

So here's my solution for what it's worth. Tax the vehicles instead, the annual tax would be a percentage of the vehicles value based on its EPA mileage rating. Lets say 10 to 15% if its rating is less than 20MPG, 5 to 10% for 20-25MPG, and so on. Now if someone really wants to buy the Navigator, Escalade, or Hummer, fine but he's going to pay. Sense enough to buy the Prius, Civic, or even the Cobalt (for Malorn), they get to keep a lot more of their money. And for the people forced to drive whatever they can get for $200, well that $2.00 annual tax is still within their reach.

And finally, for the commercial user (contractor etc.) that actually needs that type of vehicle, the tax should be deductible providing that business provides at least 51% of his income.

My soap box session for today

 

I totally agree with you... even if nothing other than status quo happens in the Middle East, when 'driving season' approaches it'll be over $3.00... very likely towards $3.5.

Iran still trying to Nuke up
Iraq still not really adding to the world market
Hamas in charge of the Palestinian Legislature
Rebels and Unrest in Nigeria
Leftists hostile to the US in charge of Venezula and Bolovia

Throw in one of 2 of those going bad, and you see see $4- $5. Again, I am with you, that is precisely why I am getting my Prius.

 

well then you're well aware of the massive receptor downregulation in response to a prolonged overstimulation, and how that alone changes the cellular topography of the brain, and how adaptation and return to a baseline state (of receptor number, of proper cell signalling, removal of compensatory signal, etc) after removal if said stimulus takes a long time. no to mention all the other systems that are indirectly affected.

i said that i'm not defending smoking. but it is insanely hard to quit. on top of the physiologic changes, you get the psychological problem- the habit, the routine. the smoke after dinner and that whole thing.

sure, DH got into his own mess and was responsible for getting himself out of it. but he tried several times in our years together to quit, and failed and failed and failed. he was cranky, demanding, and reached a point where he had to shut himself in a room for 2 days so he didn't end up saying things to me that he didn't mean. we ended up having to use the zyban and the patch or he wouldn't have been up to trying yet again. the failures were very hard on him, he was very hard on himself. this is more than physiology can explain. the psychological aspect is probably more powerful than the pharmacological effect of the drug.

and IMO you can't really compare tobacco alkaloids with the potency of opiates like heroin.

 

Interesting thread on those "poor" oil companies, and also an interesting diversion into the topic of smoking. I never have, but have known folks who have: just like trying to kick any other hard drug.

Also "cute" how the large settlement that was *supposed* to be used for smoking cessation was instead plowed into pork projects and slush funds. Well, when it comes to politics, nothing new there.

Back to oil companies: wasn't all of this predicted by Peak Oil: Life After The Crash? Seems we're at the point where very nasty things are about to happen.

Maybe I had better equip my hobby farm with PV while I still can.

 

Umm, actualy both of those are in effect. There is a gas-guzzler tax on cars that are below a certain level. Depending on the car, it can be quite a hefty fee. The other is a tax deduction for vehicles used for business purposes.

 

Because the H2 is such a heavy vehicle, it's exempt from fuel economy and gas guzzler penalties. THis also applies to all those 4 door crew cab pickups being used as "contractor" vehicles.

 

I think guaranteeing the oil companies 7.5% profit is a mistake; historically, they make far less than that. I think the average is about 6% (may be as high as 8% over a 5 year average). The business is cyclical, and part of the problem is that the "4Q" or "3Q" profits are not the whole story.

Here's an analogy:

The first week of the month, I am broke. I earn less than my expenses (mainly, my mortgage). The second week of the month, all my earnings go to make up for the deficit in the first week. The third week of the month I start to get ahead a little and the fourth week I post record "profits". If the media looked at my expenses in the third or fourth week of the month, and looked at my income, they'd call me "filthy rich" and certainly able to pay "80 to 90% of my excess income" in taxes.

The media plays up the quarterly earnings, often of just one segment of the companies earnings and not the entire company, to juxtapose them against the suffering of common men. The idea is to titallate and excite, sell papers, and increase ratings. Its not just "the ignorant" that believe them, many normally rational and intelligent folks fall for it. But they are lying to you. Sometimes its comforting to be lied to, but you should at least realize you are being lied to.

Here's my advice: Go ye forth, and research oil company stocks and average returns. And if you think they are getting obscene profits, then go forth and buy their stocks, and reap the dividends! You will be rich in no time! You will recieve "Record Dividends" with "Billions in Profits".

 

Is this a nationwide tax Doc? And is it also an annual tax, I don't recall hearing about it since it was talked about during the Carter admin. But I hasten to add, I havn't bought anything close to that in about 35 years (never liked giving money to oil companies).

 

quitting smoking is tough, but lets face it, there are a lot of tough things in life. everyone in my family quit smoking. however, my mother, brother and sister started again. the latter two are dead. was it from smoking?? my mother most certainly yes. my brother?? maybe... he died of a heart attack at age 42 and cigarettes probably contributed.

my sister quit smoking for both her pregnancies, then started back up again as soon as her kids were born. then she quit for 2 years, and has recently started back up again in the past month. so ya, its tough...

 

Nationwide yes, annual no.

 

Well Said !!

IMO, there is no such thing as exorbitant profits for the oil companies. If (the generic) you do not like the price, do not buy it, or buy less. Walk, bike, run, insulate your home, install solar heating, wear a jacket, carpool, take a bus etc. Do whatever pleases you, EXCEPT whine that your energy use 10 fold the global average is a 'need' that the government AKA others have to provide.

Now, if you think the oil companies are a monopoly or are in collusion, that is at least a valid starting premise to demand gov intervention. Wrong IMO, but at least there would be something to discuss. I get angry, but mostly amused, at people that love capitalism until it seems to work to their detriment. Not specifically the people here, but so many millions who defend worker exploitation outside of the US, but cry wolf when the gas bill goes up.

Shades of malornian hypocrisy :angry: :blink:

 

Yep.

Not so much hard to quit, as easy to start up again.

 

I'm with Godiva. The topic is not addiction, as much a problem as it is. Oil company profits in the 20% range (even for a single quarter) are a serious problem. Rather than increase taxes for all who use petroleum products, figure out a way to tax the profits, without the loopholes that our legislators cut for the profiteers.

I have registered Republican for all of my voting life, abhoring governmental overregulation at any level, but am regretting it, even though I don't vote a straight Republican ticket. Yet, which political party truly represents the public good, or would, if given power?

Yeah, I grew up on welfare and some of Roosevelt's SS benefits, so I know both sides.

 

Reminds me of an earnest young man who tried to get me to sign the petition for the prop that enabled the CA insurance commission. With a straight face, he told me the insurance cos were making over 700% profit off the backs of us wage slaves. The petition itself said no such thing of course. My reply was something along the lines of "700%!! wow, ditch this petition, buy some stock and make a killing." He moved on and I don't think he really got it. Given the performance of the commission, he's probably working there.

 

Seriously. At 700% profit, the dividends would be higher than the price of the share!

 

First - I agree with almost everything EricGo is saying. People continue to make bad choices day in and day out then want society to foot the bill. They have enough money for beer, cigarettes, drugs and cable TV but not enough for their medicine? They smoke a pack a day for 25 years then want me to pay their medical bill? No thanks. They drive a 25 year old polluting piece of $&(% then make me pay to have to get my new car smogged every 2 years. They screwed around all through school and now can barely read and can't get a decent job and I'm to blame? Sorry. There are some in our society who through no fault of their own cannot take care of themselves and they deserve our help. But by my observations, these are the exception. Most of the rest seem to be incapable of making decent decisions, so it's no wonder their lives end up in the crapper.

As for the oil companies and obscene profits, I too like the idea of buying their stock if the profits are so out of control. BTW, where do you think the money for investment in new oil fields comes from? When the price goes up, it spurs exploration and the search for new oil. It also causes people to conserve. I have no problem with the market's price mechanism. It serves us very well. That said, I do believe that the oil companies have too much of a stranglehold (actually, probably something of an oligopoly). So it is probably not an entirely free market a work. However, when we get to saying their profits are "obscene", I wonder WHO it is who should define such a thing and WHAT level defines obscene. Is it 10%? 20%? 40%? The day we let politics decide such things is the beginning of the end for the American economy.

Lastly, for Walmart, my opinion is they have been an incredible force for maintaining low inflation in this country. I remember the late 70s when inflation was something like 15-20%. And for those who complain about the "low wages" they pay their employees, have you considered that these are often "low skill" jobs? In case you haven't noticed, high wages accrue to those with a high degree of education and skill. Should it be any other way?

 

Very good discussion.

To EricGo and Tim: the following is not wishy-washy liberalism. I've known many like you guys who lament the "decision-making" of the chronic poor, both working and non-working flavors. These discussions often devolve to some variation of "poor choices", laziness, "they still have enough money for junk food and makeup", etc.

What I rarely hear is acknowledgement of a basic fact so terrible it's not even PC to whisper it: lack of native intelligence. It's handmaiden in "poor choices": lack of will (NOT to be mistaken with "laziness", which exists independently).

Why isn't it discussed? Becuse it's a dead end. No one can do anything about it (although "education" is often the default answer for most social maladies). And no one has figured out a way to tell which of these factors is operable in individual cases simply by looking at the faces.

You guys prima facie have the brains and had the will. Good for you. No one can ever hold that against you, nor should they.

"If I (Jews) (Asians) (Italians) can do it, (you) (he/she) (African-Americans) can, too. True?

ONLY ON A CASE-BY-CASE BASIS. Lucky for us, the laws of heredity allow, nay, demand, "will" and "intelligence" and "creativity" and "exceptional hand/eye coordination" in a pitiful minority of cases, even as a portion of the population seems increasingly to be breeding for 100% failure-factors.

Moral: don't condemn people out-of-hand as a group, nor based on what hurdles you (or your ethnicity) were able to overcome.

Rant II

I'm trying to quit smoking after 50 years. I have emphysema. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, and I have brains and will galore. I've failed to quit many times since age 30, having tried hypnosis, aversion therapy (induced vomiting), patches and other aids. I have great admiration for what galaxee says she did. I wish I had had a wife who took that extra step and wouldn't take "no" for an answer. You're likely saving some of his life, galaxee, as well as your own.

After giving the State of California an extra buck or more per pack for Rob Reiner's purported "health, -mainly-for-kids" and other "programs", when the time came, do you think I could get the State to buy me a patch? Split the cost? Sheeeee-it.

How many millions does the State spend on a very slick TV ad campaign TELLING PEOPLE TO QUIT? [But not helping INDIVIDUALS (who paid all the taxes) to quit, other than also setting up 800 numbers, which you can call and GET A REAL PERSON TELLING YOU TO QUIT (this time armed with statistics, etc., as if you're a freaking zombie who never realized it's bad for you)?] The best you'll get is a referral to a county health department, who will offer you the opportunity to attend support groups, where people largely TELL EACH OTHER TO QUIT.

Where DID all that Rob Reiner and other guilt-tax money go? Aren't "they" obligated to at least tell us? Sheeeeee-it.

Angry? Even bitter? And, ex-Catholic and being of Germanic descent as I am, also guilt-ridden, not only for the money I've wasted and the second-hand smoke, but my utter failure of will? Yep, yep and yep.