Ford hybrid sales boosted by C-Max and Fusion

I think its a good thing.
I wonder how FORD is doing the HV batt warranty? In other words, Toyota only gives CARB states the 150,000 mile HV batt warranty.

OK I checked - HV batt warranty seems to be same as Toyota with CARB states and non-CARB states differentiated

 

I wonder how many will be happy with their cars after they realize they won't get EPA numbers.

 

Hopefully ford will change there advertising.

But to the point, how many were happy with the gen II prius after they failed to get the 60/51/55 combined of the old epa they were promised. Some were definitely disappointed but some were happy with the mileage they were getting. Its not a good thing, but if all the cars had realistic epa, the c-max and fusion hybrids would still sell well. The 47 mpg with the complaint that it doesn't get epa, may get more folks to buy the regular fusion. The ford plants are at capacity for fusions right now, but think they will be able to add more capacity in michigan for the 2014 my production.

 

Talked to a guy today at Santa Nella at Love's while getting gas in a new Ford Fusion Hybrid with 11,000 miles on it. He came from LA and his readout showed 31.1mpg and a speed of 75.

That was my display from Santee, CA Costco to Santa Nella including headwinds and the Tejon Pass. Guy was pissed beyond belief with the real world MPG, said he hasnt seen above 45 and that was babying it.

 

Funny, when I see 'C-Max' I think of the European Ford Focus C-Max: a medium sized MPV that I often have to use as an example of the size of my '04 Prius (and samish MPG for the diesel C-Max, and samish price = no brainer for me, I don't like diesel). So I'm not surprised that now people have a choice that some will opt for the alternative, for what-ever reason. Fortunately Toyota has stolen such a lead that it'll take a while to errode, but they couldn't rest on their laurals for too long.

As for the EPA numbers: I thought they were the more realistic numbers than those issued by the manufacturers in their 'ideal' tests? In any respect, the effieciency will always depend on driver/condition and never a given number. The number is only useful in comparing cars as, if someone gets 20% less than the MPA number from one car, shouldn't they get nearly the same less in another, due to the way/where they drive?

 

No, not in this case. The Fords are not able to achieve EPA estimates in anything resembling normal driving. This is because the Ford programing works well in the EPA test cycle but the EPA test cycle does not exactly mirror most people's commute.

I many cases, people traded in a Prius for a CMAX or Fusion Hybrid. These people used to get EPA+- 5%in their Prius but cannot even come close to EPA in their Fords. This has nothing to do with their driving so much as the way Ford programmed their vehicles and how the EPA test cycle works. Coincidence? Only Ford engineers know.

 

Heh Heh. I am not saying they will get EPA, I am asking about the prii drivers not getting EPA before, but still liking the car. BTW, that is rather funny that you try to compare his going 75 mph speed and your 63 mph, and talk about him babying the car. Just a reminder of what I am talking about.

EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate - Feds' Findings Confirm Consumer Complaints - Mombu the Asian cars Forum

Hope that refreshes peoples mmemories.

They would only get close to EPA if they bought a car post 2007, I'm thinking most of the prius trade ins for c-max are at least that old. The car has not been out that long.

c-max said 60% were conquest, I doubt more than 2% were 2008+ prii. 40% were fords, and the second highest was honda cr-v.

So this is the question again. do you think a new fussion hybrid owner that gets 39 mpg will be mad versus a camry hybrid buyer that gets 39 mpg. The difference will be if they believed the sticker.
I'm sure some of those fussion owners will be mad. Ford needs to change advertising. But these are good cars.

 

Honestly, I don't have a good argument for this. I was a pre-2007 Prius owner but I really didn't focus on the difference between what I was getting and what EPA ratings were.

Nowadays I would be livid!

I think the Honda, Hyundai and Kia lawsuits have shown us that people get angry when their vehicles cannot achieve EPA numbers. When a whole fleet of cars cannot do it AND that manufacturer pokes fun at competitors well let's just say that the chickens are coming home to roost, ya'll.

 

At least one network heavily plays the FORD commercial with EPA 47 MPG. But I don't want to tell which network it is, because it's FOX. I assure you I give fair play to Rachel Maddow too... But perhaps FOX successfully reaches the demographic that FORD wants. I am not sure the -8 MPG is going to bother too many. If I bought a Cmax I would expect 39 MPG average at best, and I would not be dissappointed since I know Fuelly doesn't lie.

 

Honda law suit - battery failures and honda instead of replacing the batteries under warenty, had them upgrade software and reduce milage further. The bulk of honda hybrid milage complaints, were pre 2008. That is right the old EPA which drastically inflated hybrid mpg.

Hyundai/kia were caught cheating on the test.

Both are vary different than Ford. Honda lawsuit was thrown out on appeal, because honda did not cheat when they posted those huge epa figures, not because consumers were not harmed.

btw: I don't get close to EPA on my daily drives. The car just will not get EPA on short trips, no matter how you drive it, but some here seem to claim its easy. Sure easy on their commutes The ford's seem to be able to be similar to toyotas on the city test, but highway is way off.

I agree ford needs to change the advertising and the dealer action. It appears that toyota dealers were doing the same thing as ford dealers, but ford only has been doing this 6 months. YMMV. Ford seems to be penetrating the mid west with hybrids, and other areas toyota's don't sell that well.

 

You have big wheels!

As usual, I don't really disagree with what you are saying. Just subtle nuances.

 

I have big wheels, but I have swaped prii. Its the commute. We traded for 2 days and each were within 1 mpg of our avearge - 2011 stock wheels for 2010 17s and upgraded stereo. If I had the commute I used to have when I lived in Palo Alto mpg would be different. Do you think we should only judge prii on long commutes in california? I get really good mileage on long trips, but I rarely take long trips. A neighbor is doing social media for the dealer I bought the prius from and its the hills and speeds.

The things that people complain about on the prius is not mpg, but that does not mean they are all getting epa. What mpg do you get on a 7 minute 5 mile trip in hills and air conditioning? I got close to epa in my pre 1998 (old epa) lexus, but far under epa on city trips.

I know one thing we can agree on is ford needs to change their advertising and dealer interaction, but lots of the complaints are over the top.

 

Good point!

 

So starting with the data reported to the EPA:
Test Car List Data Files | Cars and Light Trucks | US EPA

	Column 1
0	[th]Coef A[th]Coef B[th]Coef C[th]Comment
1	[tr][td2]22.93[td2]0.3908[td2].01874[td]Raw roll-down numbers
2	[tr][td2]0.05[td2]0.31983[td2].01752[td]Ford reports dyno numbers

Source: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/testcars/database/13tstcar.csv

RLHP = ((A + (B*V) + (C*V*V)) / 7.5


Per the required drag power, both cars are nearly identical. The Prius v has increased drag above 70 mph but this is offset by the cooled, exhaust recirculation. This technique keeps the engine lean at higher power settings.


But when both Toyota and Ford submitted their 'corrected' drag coefficients, we find the CMAX suddenly appears to have significantly lower drag power requirements. Meanwhile, the Prius v still has the advantage of cooled exhaust gas recirculation.

So in effect, the Ford CMAX has two problems:

• less efficient engine at higher power settings such as when accelerating
• lower 'adjusted' drag power coefficients

Ford did it to themselves and I have little to no sympathy. It is called 'managing user expectations' and someone in Ford forgot that customers have memories. They also forgot that customers also have access to 'the Internet'.

Bob Wilson

ps. I tried to upload the excel spreadsheet and a zip file and neither showed up. Send me a PM with an e-mail address and I'll reply with the spreadsheet attached.

 

My average was 63 because of LA/OC traffic at 9am. My speed in the central valley was between 70 and 80. That reading was with headwinds and crosswinds. My average from Santa Nella to Sacramento was 47 at 70mph through Stockton and Elk Grove. By driving through the city today and in the Sac State area my average has jumped to 52 now. From Tejon Pass to Santa Nella my dad who doesnt care as much about mpg drove and we also had the A/C at 75 Auto.

Not arguing the babying it because the last time I did this drive was in october 2012 and I tried drafting a semi on 5 north for 10 miles at 60mph. MPG was in the high 70's with no crosswinds.

 

They won't be.

 

49mpg at 64mph. The Prius would likely be around 40 mpg vs. 50 mpg rated with a 75 mph average which is about where the Fusion was at 31 mpg vs. 37 mpg rated at a 75 mph average.

 

That road is strange with the winds shifting. There another person from San Diego staying at our hotel with a Passat TDI 6 speed manual that got 42mpg hand calculated driving 75 in the valley, granted 87 is $3.91 across the street and diesel is $4.15