4th generation coming 2015!

I gather the Mazda has two unrelated systems to improve fuel economy. One is a start-stop, and the other is a kinetic energy capture called ELOOP.

If I understand ELOOP correctly, a generator engages when the fuel pedal is released. This amounts to an extra drag on the car, and some of that extra drag is captured to a superCap. The stored energy is used to power car accessories. I was not able to find any power or energy ratings other than that the generator is variable voltage between 12 - 25V. This all sounds pretty puny to me. Start-stop in a car without ELOOP will not have AC during a stop.

The two systems together improve EPA fuel economy ratings about 6%. Interesting, the improvement is in both urban and extra-urban tests which honestly does not make sense to me and makes me wonder if other modifications for the high end trims are in play. Perhaps a driver who knows how to use the system to their advantage will report happier results, but for the senseless driver the tech has a negative side: coasting is inefficient.

To return for a moment to my earlier post, these cars do not come anywhere near 40 MPG combined EPA and reinforce my statement that the so-called encroaching competition of conventional cars on to Prius turf is a figment of the auto press' imagination.

 

I read the small print on the brochure for the Mazda 6. The super caps can get depleted on an extended park, say like being left at the airport, and may delay driving until they are charged up. Its only available on as an option on their highest end model that starts at >$29K. I believe the US version has no on/off button (I looked in the interior and didn't find it) and it may be because its being used for CAFE.

 

Why is it that many believe mentioning diesels is competition for the Prius and other hybrids? Clean Diesel technology cannot come close to any gas/hybrid in City and Combined MPG. Some detractors are saying that a clean diesel hybrid can match or beat a gas/hybrid like the 3rd Gen Prius. Only problem here is that a Clean Diesel is really not clean when it comes to smog forming emissions like Nitrogen Oxide(NOX) particulates. The latest clean diesel designs (LEV 2 ULEV), emit 300 to 400 % more NOX particulates than a AT PZEV rated Prius. Any of the latest Clean Diesel vehicles, I accidentally happened to be behind, emits such a foul unhealthy stench, that I change lanes immediately to get away. Gas only vehicles like the tiny Scion IQ can only get a 36 MPG Combined(City and Hwy) and that is a two passenger vehicle.

The competition has had a better part of a decade to catch up to the 3rd Gen HSD and yet there are none? Gaming of the EPA MPG Ratings Tests by some vehicle manufacturers have caused class action lawsuits and millions of dollars of rebate checks issued. Yet there is no direct competition for the Prius Hybrid at the 51 City MPG(excluding EVs, Hydrogen, NG, and LP). Probable cause is trying to dance around the 3rd HSD Patents without tripping a Patent Infringement. The 4th Gen is just around the corner and I can only imagine that it will exceed my 2014 Prius 60 City MPG rating that I am getting around town personally.

Here in LA County, it seems there are a lot more Prius owners like me who hate gas stations. The only upgrade path for me is a Tesla S or a future Toyota EV that can go 400 miles on a charge and takes 10 minutes to charge to 50% or fully. Also this would be conditional that there are as many charging stations as there gas stations.

 

10 mins to charge 50% ? I wouldn't hold my breath. For me, a 400 mile drive is enough for one day. If I could charge up 25% during a lunch break, then that would take me to 500 miles and I really wouldn't want to drive more than that. Furthermore, most charging should be done at night when rates are low. At 21 cents / kwh, the PiP EV miles cost about the same as gas miles. It wouldn't be very often that the 400 miles would get drained by the average driver, so night charging shouldn't be a problem. Right now, the battery pack for 400 miles driving at highway speeds of 75 mph will require at least 133 KWH of battery energy.
Miles per kwh? | Forums | Tesla Motors

That battery will cost somewhere around $300 per kwh, so today, it'd cost $40,000. Think of the battery as the gas tank that weighs over 1,000 lbs - 6 or 7 passengers and costs more than a normal car.

So bottom line is that battery technology has to get cheaper and lighter by at least a factor of 5 if not by a factor of 10 before they become as versatile as our gas engines. Using the battery sparingly as in the PiP is actually a pretty optimized tradeoff if you want to lower the amount of gasoline consumed today.

 

I view the PiP as a ~ 75 MPG (us) car for a very large segment of the US population. At around $25k for a base car, no other car technology can currently compete in terms of environmental value (emission_reduction / $).

Now if we could only price fossil fuels realistically, Americans would figure this out.

 

A gallon of gas goes about 50 miles, four full charges of electricity goes about 50 miles using 12 kWh total (assuming 12.5 miles per 3 kWh charge).
$0.21x12=$2.52 I would LOVE to get gas at that price. Did you mean 31 cents/ kWh? That seems more logical ($3.72/ gallon gas).

 

Back in 2011, the Volt and the Leaf were available. I did not like the Volt for the fact that it gets lousy combined MPGs (34-35) after the 35 mile charge on the battery was depleted. The leaf with it's puny 50-70 mile range was a mileage anxiety concern and was tossed out for obvious reasons. I have a grid tied solar system installed on my roof and currently have no electricity bill. If I owned a Tesla, Volt,or a Leaf, I would have to pay an electricity bill again or upgrade my solar system. I chose the Prius Hybrid instead although the PHEV Prius was available at the time. You are right, I wouldn't hold my breath! I'll just wait for the 4th Gen Prius.

 

You could be waiting for a very long time for a Toyota EV as they recently announced Toyota will be pulling out of EV in the near term.

Actually I have to hold up my hand and say in the past I have questioned Toyota's judgement in not pursuing clean diesel technology. Especially here in Europe, there are plenty of diesels with astonishingly good mpg ratings especially in real world motorway runs and which are way cheaper that the Prius.

However, the recent turn of events that started with the London Mayor calling for a surcharge for Diesel cars has ignited the whole debate of what exactly is meant by an environmentally friendly, clean, green car. Take a modern Diesel and step on the gas and there will be a plume of black smoke from its exhaust. This is far less than it used to be but it still remains the case. Further investigations have uncovered that modern Diesels are surprisingly clean when operating under test conditions used by various organizations to measure emissions. A recent investigation of an Euro 6 compliant Diesel car has shown that when it runs in normal driving conditions, the emissions rise exponentially. So I would say Toyota has been right all along not to go with Diesel technology. It is going to become increasingly difficult to clean up diesel emissions going forward and is going to be reflected in the price of diesel cars of the future. And after all those expensive particulate filters finish cleaning up Diesel exhausts, it is still not going to be clean enough.

 

Regarding emissions from modern diesels, there was a very recent study of real-time emissions from T2B5-compliant diesel cars in the U.S. during actual driving conditions which varied from steady highway driving to hill climbs to urban-type driving (Thompson et al., "In-Use Emissions Testing of Light-Duty Diesel Vehicles in the United States." International Council on Clean Transportation Report, May 15, 2014). PM emissions were measured at nearly 100% below the regulatory requirement of 0.01 g/mile. Even during DPF regeneration, the PM levels remain well below regulatory limits (~7 mg/mile).

Another recent study documented extraordinarily high black carbon (BC - "soot" which is a component of PM) from modern gasoline cars, both PFI and GDI, during the cold-start phase of the FTP in cold ambient conditions, up to 162 mg/mile...




Source: Tak W. Chan et al. (2014) "Black Carbon Emissions in Gasoline Exhaust and a Reduction Alternative with a Gasoline Particulate Filter." Environmental Science & Technology 48 (10), 6027-6034, Black Carbon Emissions in Gasoline Exhaust and a Reduction Alternative with a Gasoline Particulate Filter - Environmental Science & Technology (ACS Publications) (Abstract)


Gasoline vehicles have also been shown to be the primary source of secondary organic aerosols (SOA) which generally far exceed the contribution of PM to ambient levels than primary (direct) PM emissions from tailpipes...


Green Car Congress: Study finds gasoline exhaust contributes more to formation of secondary organic aerosols than diesel

http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/12/31725/2012/acpd-12-31725-2012-print.pdf

Secondary organic aerosol formation exceeds primary particulate matter emissions for light-duty gasoline vehicles - ResearchGate


Diesels may be higher emitters of NOx (although the Advanced Collaborative Emissions Studies disputes that; it appears that urea-SCR is far superior to adsorption catalysts), but gasoline vehicles have higher emissions of the other criteria pollutants, especially NMOG/VOC.

 

Well here's the competition heating up more!
New Chevy Volt teased - motoring.com.au


Chevy volt 2 teased...real pic, to be shown in January. Volt has been out 1 year less than the 3rd gen prius

Still no tease really (except mule-vehicles) on the Gen IV

 

Differences in company approaches.
GM 'teased' for ~ 2 years that the Volt would have a 40 mile range using 8 kWh. That turned out to be 3/4rhts lie and 1/4rth spin.
And if you are so inclined you can view the photos that GM showed of a 'sporty' Volt design, only to end up with a Daewoo.
OH!, and lest I forget that memorable moment when GM refused to publish CS MPG figures and instead said 'buy and find out.'

In short, if GM's mouth is moving, it is BS.

 

Rumours are 1.0 Liter 3 cylinder with seating for 5 for Volt II. Still doesn't look as roomy as the prius, but should work for more families that way. And I'll be curious to see what mpg that engine pulls off.
Source: Sources: Next-Gen Chevy Volt To Get Seating For 5; 1.0 Liter 3 Cylinder Engine

 

Funny, that was the engine GM talked about for years for the Volt 1.0

 

Diesels are just not clean enough to really be called green. In Europe, their emission standards favor diesels and handicap gas vehicles. In time, ICE (gas or diesel) will go the way of the dinosaurs as the ZEV emissions standard will be the norm.

 

Maybe in 2 decades or so...probably more.

 

Downsizing means worse BSFC at wider throttle openings.
IMO, that would be a bad move towards CS MPG benefit.

 

hmmm.
My understanding is that until the throttle is wide open, the engine is too big

 

The service of a range-extender is to provide good power, not partial charge.
Downsizing may serve well in urban or light load, but as on-board hybrid ICE? I'll have to see the result...

 

Ahh, now I understand your skepticism. Doesn't the BMW i3 PHEV also use a small motorcycle ICE ?

How about some maths ?
A small ICE can output some 40 kW efficiently, but a driver might want 80 kW for a long hill of say 3 minutes. So long as the traction battery keeps 2 kWh in reserve for high power demands (and replaces it if used) performance should satisfy the great majority of people.

A small turbo ICE is also a solution. Overall efficiency will only suffer if the driver is abusive.

 

How about staying on topic? Where are the moderators?