buying, extra costs necessary or negotiable?

<_< Always helps if you post your LOCATION... Taxes and Fees vary from place to place.

 

I'm having trouble with your math/numbers. What adds up to $2276? $3011? ($2276 plus the fees you list almost = $3011) Is $2276 sales tax?

Postage and tire tax are petty things that most dealers would be embarrassed to itemize. Never heard of a "lieu" tax---you should ask right away (it won't sound dumb). In CA the doc fee is limited to $45 by law. In states where it's unregulated, it's largely extra profit---and negotiable. (In theory they're charging you for the time spent by their people "upstairs" who document the sale in various ways---in other words, their normal operating overhead. If their people are paid an average of $15/hr., they're charging you for more than 24 hr. of their time!)

Never be afraid to question ANY fee from a car dealer. It's YOUR money. Only the registration fees are set by law.

 

Lieu taxes are taxes levied in lieu of other taxes. It sounds to me as though the dealership is trying to pass along to you part of a tax that it is supposed to pay itself, in return for being exempted from some other tax. If this is the case, it is dishonest, as they are merely charging something above MSRP without admitting it.

The Document Fee sounds excessive to me. I paid $149 doc fee. I thought $50 would have been reasonable, but decided not to quibble about the $100 because they had gotten me exactly the car I wanted in less time than originally promised.

With the $370 doc fee and the $350 lieu tax, it looks to me as though they're actually charging you about $650 over MSRP.

I would walk away from the deal UNLESS:

1. They prove to you that the lieu tax is legally a tax on the buyer or else drop that item;

AND

2. Reduce the doc fee to a more reasonable amount (say, maybe, $50 to $150).

It is perfectly honest and acceptable for a dealer to charge over MSRP if he is up front about it. The buyer can agree to pay, or go somewhere else. But it is dishonest and sleazy for a dealer to sneak in an above-MSRP charge by including a line item that appears to be a tax, or by inflating an otherwise legitimate charge out of all proportion.

 

# Arizona Lieu Tax - Also known as Plate fees. A personal property Tax based on the value of the item being purchased. Lieu tax provides the annual stickers for vehicles registered in Arizona.

"I got it from Google, so it must be true"

For anyone doubtful of the legitimacy of a claimed tax, Ii'd check with your state office on taxation. Here in California, i'm sure they'd like to know of illegally collected taxes.

-- rick

 

So the lieu tax is legitimate---simply your first year AZ registration fee.

That leaves the documentation fee as your main source of heartburn. Only AZ buyers would know what the average doc fee is. Or you could call around to a few dealers, ask for a sales mgr or "finance person" and ask them.

Sounds as if you were expecting to have some leverage for a discount since you're buying two cars---and you couldn't get below MSRP even after shopping around. Hard to say (just being honest) if that just reflects the Prius market right now where you are, or whether you're just not a "tough negotiator". In any case, you're not getting a great deal nor are you getting ripped off greatly. We've all heard of doc fees in other states that exceed $300---I think Fla or some SE state has high ones.

If you want to make one last stab at saving a few hundred dollars, here's how:

DON'T wait until the last minute to do this (makes for bad feelings, and besides, your car might arrive early); do it within the next few days.

Call your salesperson and say you ran across just the car you want, in stock at another (unspecified) dealer, and they'll sell it to you for $500 below MSRP if you buy it within 48 hours. Ask them if you can get your deposit back quickly. (Do you have an understanding with them about the refundability of your deposit? Is it in writing?) If they say no, it'll take "a few days" to get it back, sound a little irritated but say, "oh, well, I'll just have to give them another deposit". That bluff should work. Sound as if you're concluding the call by expecting them to process a refund of your deposit, even if they can't do it fast enough to suit you. If it doesn't (give them at least an hour to call you back, even if they sound as if they're not going to budge), call them back within two hours and say the other deal fell through, they sold the car to someone else, whatever, and to stop the refund process on your deposit.

Good luck.

 

That could backfire. They could say they found another buyer after you said you wanted your deposit back. That kind of bluff should only be used if you're really willing to back out on the deal.

I would not expect two cars to garner a special discount. Two is not a lot, for a car in such high demand. Ten, maybe.

Instead of that, decide if you want to back out due to the high doc fee. (Maybe after calling other dealers to find out their fees.) Then, if the answer is yes, call them up. Don't lie about make-believe alternate cars. Just say the fee is too high and a deal-breaker. Give them the honest ultimatum: reduce it to X or you're out.

If the lieu tax really is the first year's licence plate tag fee, then the doc fee is the only big thing. (You can find out if the sales tax is really your state's tax rate, in which case there's nothing you can do about it, except not buy the car if you cannot afford it at that price).

 

Hi All,

Joy I was reading your posting above and came across this:

"I talked to my friend at work, he said that I should buy my car out of state, and order it through e-bay or a dealership on-line so that I don't have to pay any taxes, saving me around 2 grand. The only thing you would have to pay for is delivery which could run around $400..."

Before you rush off to another state to buy your car you should check with your states DMV regulations regarding out of state purchases and tax liability. Here in California (where I live) you can indeed purchase your car out of state and bring it in to live here, but... unless the car has a minimum of 7,000 miles on it at the time of purchase it is considered a "new" car and you still have to pay California taxes, license, transfer fees, etc. By the time you are done with everything the only benefit you may derive is the fact that you will have your car in your hot little hands possibly sooner than your local dealership could offer (and a wonderful drive home in your shiny new car -- a big plus if you ask me, but still).

Some friends of mine tried to avoid the sales tax thing on a new trailer they purchased in Portland, OR. this past summer. They drove their Ford F-450 to Portland (9 - 12 Mpg) bought the trailer in OR and drove it back steering with one hand while patting themselves vigorously on the back with the other for outsmarting California.

Their trailer had lived here in CA for around 2 months when they got a bill in the mail for the sales tax due on the purchase around $1500.

This was an unbudgeted amount and wound up coming out of dearly needed savings. Whoops.

So, all in all the only thing they got by buying thier trailer out of state was the lovely ride back with it to get it home. Add the cost of the extra fuel spent to drive the truck to OR and back, the extra time it took just to get there, the hotels they stayed in on the way up to Portland (they took 3 days to get there as they have kids and did not want to do a marathon drive) together they would have been better off to have stayed here and bought the same trailer locally.

I also agree with the folks that have suggested that you not bluff unless you are fully willing to risk losing the car. Car dealers are usually better a the bluffing thing than we civilians are anyway.

I do think that you should call around to other dealerships in town and research the median price for docs fees (remembering of course, that if these fees are unregulated where you are the other dealerships are probably padding them some too). Once you know what the numbers actually should be, confront them (if appropriate) all they can do is say no they won't discount the fee and you don't get the savings. Really, doc fees are small potatoes but you could also try seeing if you can get the dealer to throw in some other freebie if they won't drop the fees. See what you can get, can't hurt and you might be able to get some cool stuff.

I have learned through the years that it never hurts to ask for a discount at just about anywhere and more often than not, if you are nice about it, you will get it.

Good luck with your future purchase. Both of you will love your cars and will soon feel, as most of us who are already owners do, that these cars are worth their weight in uranium.

Take care and keep us posted on your progress.

Tisza

 

I agree with Widdletink that you probably cannot (legally) avoid the tax by buying out of state. But many Prius owners found their cars out of state, saving on the purchase price, or reducing wait times. And rather than have the car delivered, most have travelled out and driven their new car home. But with your new car near delivery, and only an inflated doc fee over MSRP, the out-of-state strategy probably wouldn't help you much.

BTW, there are all sorts of nut cases out there who are certain they know how to avoid paying taxes. Some of them insist that the government "does not have the right" to collect if you do this or that. Well, those loopholes only exist for the super-rich. The best a normal person could do is move to a low-tax state, if that's your priority. There are small items that you can buy on-line from vendors who do not charge sales tax for out-of-state purchases, but most states claim the right to charge those taxes. They won't try to collect the tax on a DVD you bougt over the internet, but they sure will do their best to collect the tax on a new car.

 

Their doc fee can bite me! I paid a whopping $50 doc fee when I got mine!

You're getting gouged bad for that one.

 

All dealers in an area simultaneously raising their doc fee to the same amount sounds to me like price-fixing, which ought to be illegal. However, if you can afford it and you want the car... well, I'd probably pay it too... it's a fantastic car and you're going to love it!

 

All this rigamarole is why you need to negotiate the total out the door price. Until you have negotiated all the bogus charges out, you haven't negotiated a deal.

If all the other dealers really do charge the same doc fee, then this deal may not be bad. But I paid only $45 for the doc fee in CA.

I will say that the dealers are getting smarter... "doc fee" sounds much better than "additional dealer markup" as they used to try.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(joy @ Mar 22 2006, 03:29 PM) [snapback]228593[/snapback]</div>

Here in FL we paid $23,825.00 for the car + $850.00 freight + 6% sales tax + $75.00 for plate transfer & new title, + $9.00 tires/battery taxes, no dealer paper shuffling fees. Did you buy a new plate or transfer off another vehicle? FL charges $100.00 for a new plate. Hope this is helpful.