The Next Sonata Hybrid

We have to remember that many folks don't rack up a lot of miles per year and prefer more comfort, style, power, etc.. Max mpg comes with some negatives and thus is not the best choice for everyone.

I remember thinking how disappointed I was with the 37mpg rating for the Volt compared to what I could achieve in any of my Prii. After a year and a half of driving I haven't really given it a second thought. Granted I drive mostly EV so I'm sure that plays a part in my indifference but most folks switching to a hybrid are coming from something with much worse mpg than the Sonata, Fusion, etc.. So 40mpg with power and style looks good to those people.

I wish the Prius could rid itself of the stigma someday.

 

good point. love my prius, but from here to florida? hycam all the way. miss 60 mpg? you betcha, but 42 is nothing to sneeze at fot the size, weight, comfort and quiet. wouldn't mind if it had a plug though, there's a free charger at the marriott.

 

could be, but i'm not a beta tester. hopefully, toy will fall in step. if not, someone's going to have to have a good track record, and get the batteries out of my trunk!

 

Sure, I agree.
I'm not being sarcastic when I say I think it's great and I hope it is a great product.

But now that I would say I've had 6-7 years of paying relatively close attention to "Hybrids" and Prius, and the whole "alternative" automotive world, I'd say that it still surprises me that while hybrid and electric automotive offerings have expanded, I'd still say no other auto manufacturer really seems willing to try to take direct aim at Prius.

Honda might be closest with The Insight?

But most other Hybrid offering always seem to go to lengths to NOT be a Prius. So you get these Sedans that fall somewhere above the MPG of the regular model, but below the MPG of a Prius. I still don't quite understand why it seems other auto manufacturers don't get that The Prius, is a GOOD IDEA. Toyota has sold a million of them. I'm still waiting for the day when a main stream competitor, releases a hybrid that get's Prius MPG numbers at a Prius buying price point.

 

I guess my simple answer is because with over a decade of sales, over a million sold, and now going on a 4th generation and having become a entire "Family" of Prius vehicles....The Prius formula works.

Yet it seems like other manufacturers don't get this. Those other "more popular segments" are only more popular as ICE vehicles. Their Hybrid incarnations have varying degrees of popularity and success, none approaching the success of The Prius.

I'm not against Sedan Hybrids. Or SUV hybrids, or any envelope pushing product.

I just don't really get this seeming resistance of other auto makers to realize or admit...that The Prius is and has been a success, and maybe they might want to build a separate Hybrid that follows a similar path in regards to fuel efficiency, price, and utility.

 

Think of it this way, the cruze is the first car that size in over 30 years that gm has made money on. Ford chose to focus on the focus, and would not likely be any more profitable if they had a hybrid version. The F-series is where ford makes most of their money, and sales volume and profit margin kill the prius outside Japan. Ford simply until now hasn't had the money, it lost a great deal in the explorer fiasco.

Right now that hybrid hatchback market is larger in Japan than the rest of the world, and there are major barriers to entry there for foreign entry. So the key other players were never americans or europeans but honda and nissan. Nissan has focused on the leaf and had their own near bankrupcy. Honda has tried, and the fit hybrid is their best entry against the prius, it is not sold in the US though.

Again the cruze and focus are likely more profitable than the prius in north america. The F-series kills it here. In Japan things are different, but ford and GM and everyone else foreign is not allowed to compete in Japan where imports have soft barriers and only 5% of cars are from non-Japanese makers.

Ford and Hyundai are talking deadicated hybrid designs, but I doubt either will match the prius exactly, and ford will get worse real world mpg

Say Ford copied the prius completely. There cost of production would likely be higher because of lower volume. How many people would pay more for a ford prius than a toyota prius. The US market for "prius liftback" may have been shrinking since 2007.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

Ok, so Hyundai will have something better than the Sonata h!

Hyundai spotted testing Prius-style hybrid

 

"The Prius family is only one in name only."

Sure...what's in a name? Toyota could of chosen to call The Prius c and The Prius v as well as the Plug in Prius...anything. But they chose to expand The Prius brand..by keeping the name with 3 evolutions from the original standard hatchback product. So to Toyota, and Toyota marketing it's a family and that means to me? That the Prius brand expanded and grew...that's success.

"The Prius is doing well, but only when compared to other hybrids. Which are still a tiny minority of the entire market. "

That's my point. The Prius is doing well and has done well...and yet in over a decade not any real direct competitors. The fact that hybrids are still a tiny minority of the entire market is immaterial when we are talking about automakers seeming desire to make HYBRIDS that aren't like The Prius...we are still talking Hybrids within the Hybrid market.

My argument on one level is very simple.

It's not just Hyundai with their comfortable hybrid sedan which is NOT like the Prius.

It's VW who also markets their Hybrid as NOT like the Prius.

It's Ford who fudged EPA numbers and ran clever commercials boasting how their Hybrids were NOT like the Prius.

They're building them...they are hybrids.

My argument is why not try building a Hybrid that IS like The Prius?

I don't really buy the "Hatchback" stigma argument. I don't feel a lot of people that are SERIOUSLY considering a hybrid are saying:

"You know, I'd really like 50 mpg, and I'd really like a useable family vehicle, BUT I don't want the back to lift up and the seats to fold down!".

IMO and it's only my opinion....if you really hate it's a hatchback? Pull the tonneau cover back and pretend it's a huge trunk, with a glass viewing port. Seriously...being a hatchback shouldn't be deal breaker to anyone who is putting a priority on utility and efficiency...Hallmarks of The Prius.

And with the success of The Prius, I'd say the specter of the Hatchback stigma is given far too much credence.

 

Sure absolutely, but if you are going to analyse getting in the market, you have to understand that the aqua/prius c is a whole different development and platform than the prius liftback/v/phv.

Well as stated honda has tried. The insight copied a lot from the gen II prius, the problem was there was a gen III prius that was better and really a better value. Honda has access to japan which is the biggest hybrid market. If honda couldn't do it, what makes you think a ford/gm/hyundai prius would do any better. Toyota has cost advantages in hybrids in volume against every non-Japanese company. Why would you pay more for a ford prius, or a chevy prius, or a hyundai prius. As it is toyota is not making nearly the profit on a prius that gm makes on the cruze, etc. so there is not gouging allowing a higher cost competitor to enter the market. The fusion did about 47K vehicles last year between the hybrid and energi, I doubt a "ford prius" woule do nearly as well, in fact it would likely bomb like the insight.

 

my personal opinion is that they would all like to make a prius competitor... but they can't.

 

I agree. I'm glad they stopped because it was making hybrids look bad.

 

The primary unique aspect of the Toyota HSD at this point seems to be the use of a DC boost converter in order to run the motors and inverter at 600v instead of at the direct battery pack voltage of 200-360v like other hybrids from Ford, GM, etc.

I think this improves efficiency especially at highway speeds as more power goes through the electrical path in an input-split style transaxle. GM tries to compensate for running directly at the native battery pack voltage (instead of using DC booster) by using an output-split arrangement in the Volt or a compound-split arrangement in the two-mode which is less dependent on the electrical path at high speeds.

These other power-splitting setups are due to the way the motors are hooked up to the planetary gears. With input-split, the big motor is directly driving the mechanical output path to the wheels. With output-split (in the original Volt design) the big motor is on a separate planetary gear from the wheels but the input from the gas engine is mechanically directly connected to the smaller motor. The compound-split approach does not have either motor directly hooked to the gas engine input or the output axle to the wheels and essentially "splits the difference" between the input-split and output-split alternative approaches to power-splitting.

Anyway, the bottom line is that Toyota's approach is obviously wringing out better efficiency even at highway speeds.

Ford has access to Toyota's original input-split patents but I wonder if they don't have access to the DC booster-related patent rights that improve the high speed efficiency?

 

There may indeed be specific technology and patent reasons that make it difficult for competitors to make a hybrid that competes with The Prius in terms of fuel efficiency.

But it's also simply the way competitors seem to present their hybrid products, which is as if NOT being a Prius is something that makes their Hybrids "Better".

How much of that is a marketing approach, and how much of that is simply because they can't build a vehicle like the Prius because of patents and technology they can't share with Toyota?

I still patiently await the day...somebody builds a hybrid that get's 50+ MPG and it isn't a Toyota. And one that can be purchased for less than 30,000.

I still think there is room, and reason for a competitor to build and market a hybrid and say..."It's LIKE a Prius..but better", instead of forwarding the idea that their Hybrid which inevitably get's worse gas mileage and usually has less applicable utility, is somehow "better" by having those attributes.

 

honda may have something with their new system. if proven, i wonder if they would give it another go. of course, we don't know if it's cost effective in a prius size vs accord. but then, you'd have to believe the plug in market isn't the next big thing. it's hard to determine when you're talking such a small percent of vehicles.

 

i think it would be a mistake for honda or anyone to try and compete with the prius, with an existing platform.