"In Carpool Lanes, Hybrids Find Cold Shoulders" LA Times

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jsf @ Apr 10 2006, 02:36 PM) [snapback]237600[/snapback]</div>

Indeedy do

 

From what I remember when 'special' lanes were first created they were to encourage less pollution. One mechanism this was accomplished by was to increase vehicle occupancy. A side outcome of this was to encourage more road construction (of these special lanes). These lanes were never created as autobahn lanes of unrestricted speed. They were a form of social engineering. Over the years, other ways to meet the specific purpose of the lanes have come into being, one being less polluting cars. The major way these lanes were originally used was by sending mass transit down the lanes and busses do not cruise at autobahn speeds. Indeed, the lanes were never meant to reduce commuter's time. They were to reduce pollution. Perhaps it is time to redefine the purpose of these lanes or at least get all users onto the same page of their purpose . One thing we can all agree on is that there is much too much traffic in sections of these lanes. One easy way to regulate this is to catch non-qualified single drivers. another is to discourage off-duty law enforcement drivers from using the lanes. Another is to discourage single occupant motorcycles. Last on my list is to discourage low polluting vehicles from use during certain times. Remember, the lanes were never meant for speed as it is inherantly unsafe to have one lane moving much faster than the lane adjoining. Problem with 'special' lanes? Re-define them for all to understand and then use existing laws with huge penalties to enforce the definition. Second offence? Take away the driver's license. Third offence? Jail which you pay a daily rate for the privelige of your stay. Problem solved? Never! Problem under control? Instantly.

 

I see we're back to this again.

The HOV lanes in California were not created to reduce the number of cars on the freeway. That wasn't the issue when the lanes were created. Pollution was. The HOV lanes were designed to get people to carpool. That way less cars were on the freeway polluting the air.

My car pollutes less with me in it than two people carpooling. My car also saves as much gas as two people carpooling. My one car equals their two cars. The law recognizes this and granted me the privelege to drive in the HOV lanes with the purchase of stickers and the display of said stickers in their designated areas.

I feel no guilt about this. It's a perk I get for buying a Hybrid. Because when I'm NOT on the freeway, I'm still using less gas and polluting less than those two carpool drivers...who drive separate cars the rest of the time.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 10 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]237618[/snapback]</div>

I completely agree with Godiva - they called them High Occupancy Vehicle Lanes because at that time, carpooling was practically the ONLY way to reduce pollution. My ATPZEV Prius and the $8 fee allows me to use these lanes because I made the decision to buy smart. I'm getting a tax credit too.. so if the federal government is "paying" us, and the state government is "perk-ing" us, I have no problem with it.

Speed issues? I use the Carpool lane from Mission Viejo to Anaheim on the 5 fwy daily, about a 25 mile commute. I get up to 75, and set the cruise control (speed limit is 65). Yeah, I get people trying to drive over me, and NO, I'm not trying to prove a point. While I'm at 75mph, cars in front of me pull away quickly, and then I catch them 2 miles later when they slow down to pass stopped traffic. Once past, they immediately pull away at 80-90 again, and 2 miles later, it's the same story all over again. They're burning through gas accelerating and decelerating, while I'm on cruise control, getting there just as fast, safer, with better mileage. If the idiots behind me would just relax and notice that we catch the "front runners" every few miles, they'd have an easier time of it.

I've run into a few Prius drivers who stick to 65 or less and impede traffic, and I agree that they're causing problems - all due respect the law, but the culture in SoCal is work fast and drive fast, so they should think better and get out of the HOV lanes. My magic number of 75 is okay by some, and ticks off some others, but it's good for me, close to legal (not ticket worthy), and gets me there just as fast as the people in front of me.

SoCal's problem? Violaters. People with bad time management skills (speeders). Try this - the law in SoCal is that you can't tint all the way around - only rear windows. People tint the front driver's and passenger's side anyway. The CHP can't tell if they're alone in the car because of it. I say, pull'em over, and if they have a passenger, ticket them for the tint anyway.

So that's my $.02 Oh yeah, one last thought. I'm sure someone reading this is thinking that I'm going "slow" to prove a point, or that I'm militant, or whatever... now consider this:

I've got my 1 year old daughter in the back seat for almost the entire trip home everyday - and I'm responsible for her safety. So now that I'm 2 people in the car and still doing 10 over the limit, does your opinion change?

 

Hey guys, there's a reason the HOV lane is on the left; it is for PASSING! If you are not going faster than the flow of traffic, get the hell out of the HOV lane! You don't belong there. This applies to everyone, not just hybrid drivers.

Also, I see confusion on what the 'flow' of traffic is. The flow of traffic is the speed most cars are traveling at. If everyone is going 75 mph, the flow of traffic is 75 mph. If you are in the HOV lane and many people are passing you on the right, you are by definition going below the flow of traffic. Get out of the HOV lane. The only time you should be in the HOV lane is when you are going faster than everybody else, such as when the regular lanes are going between 0 and 20 mph and the HOV is 30-40 mph, or when the regular lanes oscillate in speed between 50 and 70 mph and you wish to go a steady 65 mph.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Potential Buyer @ Apr 10 2006, 01:30 PM) [snapback]237728[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, I COMPLETELY disagree with you. The HOV lane is not for PASSING. As a matter of fact, the limited number of entry points make it more agreeable for long trips, rather than "in & outs". The HOV lane is a special use lane, designed with the original intent of encouraging "carpooling" to reduce emissions. Now that you can purchase a hybrid to accomplish the same, the state government allows you access for this reason. The double yellow lines, and inability to enter or exit at your choosing, separate this lane from the fast lane, and therefore seperates the "flow of traffic" as you describe it. Speed doesn't kill, speed differential kills. and since you're in San Diego, and not up in Orange County, I wonder whether you realize that you suggested going 65, and OC residents will probably run you over for this.

The problem is NOT the drivers doing the speed limit in the HOV lane, whether they're in a hybrid or not. The problem is the SPEEDERS who think, like you do, that the HOV lane is for speeding and passing, which it is not.

for some good reading, and hopefully to aducate, try reading this:
Traffic Waves

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JMcPhee @ Apr 10 2006, 05:20 PM) [snapback]237752[/snapback]</div>

The reason there are few entry points is to prevent people from slowing down the HOV lane by merging too often. Express lanes (not common in CA, but found elsewhere) also have few entry points for exactly the same reason. Single-lane HOV, er, lanes, are not for going at what you feel is a good cruising speed, or you will be pissing off the line of cars forming behind you.

I wasn't saying the HOV lane was for passing individual cars; I was saying it's for going faster than the lanes to the right. If the right lane is doing 60 mph, the middle 70 mph, the left 80 mph, and you want to go 65, you do it in the middle or right lanes, regardless of whether or not there's an HOV lane.

BTW I don't drive 65 mph myself, I drive 75-80 usually... sometimes 85. I have literally never used an HOV lane in San Diego County, though I never have to suffer rush-hour highway traffic on my commute. But I've just never had a need for it, no matter what speed I wish to drive at. Of course occasional trips to LA and OC are times when I do take advantage of my HOV stickers since it definitely helps there, since I go faster in the HOV lanes than I could in the regular lanes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(artie @ Apr 10 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]237591[/snapback]</div>

Hi Artie, don't know why but the author of this piece emailed me recently about Prius highway speed habits. After a couple of email exchanges, her questions convinced me that just such an article was being prepared. As my driving style closely mirrors yours, it may not be a surprise that my comments didn't make the final cut.

No controversy = no story.

 

I saw a hilarious incident on my way to work last week.

I’m driving down a road going 45 MPH in a 45 MPH zone (a major speed trap area). A big red truck drove up behind me and began to pass me on a double-yellow line. He decided against that, but rode my bumper for about a mile. At the point where the road became four lanes I got in the left lane so that I could turn left at the upcoming traffic light.

As it passed on the right I noticed that it was a Coca-Cola truck and that one of the three rollup doors was in the up position. I thought nothing of it until he came up to a curve in the road and – ready for this? – his load of Coca-Cola 2 litre bottles came flying out of his truck on to the ground! Fortunately it missed all the cars on the road, but it made one helleva mess!

It’s very rare that you see a stupid driver get their comeuppance so this was oh so sweet! We laughed so hard!

On that very same road yesterday, I was driving in the 35 MPH section, doing 38 MPH, when an idiot in an SUV (on the phone) blew by me while in a no passing zone. Right behind him, another SUV did the same thing and passed on a double-yellow line. Proving again that bad drivers get rewarded for bad driving, there was a speed trap up the road and those two guys got pulled over. How sweet!

In my pre-Prius state-of-mind I would have been incensed over the passing of ME in a no passing zone! How dare they! However, my cool, black car has taught me to relax (it's not my business anyway) and to be more tolerant of what others are doing - right or wrong. In the end what goes around comes around.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Potential Buyer @ Apr 10 2006, 05:30 PM) [snapback]237728[/snapback]</div>

WOW! You folks have some great rules out there on the left coast. Since I'll be visiting there next summer, could someone please refer me to the section of your motor vehicle statutes that defines the "flow of traffic" and the proper speed limits when within the "flow of traffic"? Thanks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jim1eye @ Apr 11 2006, 08:54 AM) [snapback]237982[/snapback]</div>

No problem: the flow of traffic is defined as the speed traffic is moving at. The speed limit is the maximum speed you're supposed to go. A completely empty road has no traffic flow but still has a speed limit, and a racetrack with no speed limit does have traffic flow, usually at 100+ mph.

In many places, the flow of traffic is at the speed limit, but the two terms are not synonymous. In rush-hour, for example, the flow of traffic is often around 10 mph, despite the speed limit being 65 mph.

Now you know! And learning is power!

 

Y'a mean this is a West Coast thing? I'm sure your state will embrace this as fully as they did the 'right turn on red' rule which I first heard when I moved here 30years ago and which was not the 'rule' from whence I moved.

 

Hey! I just thought of a another good reason to allow hybrids in the HOV lanes...

Hybrid driving causes second-hand gas savings.

By enforcing fuel efficient speed limits, hybrid drivers are forcing those lead-footed BMW drviers to slow down from gas hogging speeds of 85+ to a good fuel efficient speed of 60 to 65.

So... Hybrid drivers increase the fuel efficiency of everyone in the HOV lanes.

 

And to think all those times when I drive my 6-8 MPG Motorhome in the carpool lane at 65 MPH and people honk and wave at me. I just thought they were congratulating me on my decision to use the safest most efficient lane on the freeway, while my family is with me. Limited entrance/exits, ability to use cruise control, people passing only on one side of me. If you need to do 75-85 in that lane then I am sorry, I am sorry you didn't leave earlier. I use the carpool lane from Pomona to Irvine every day in my Prius. I start at 65 MPH, if I can see the car ahead of me within a few hundred yards I leave it there. If someone comes up behind and no one is in front of me I will bump up to 75, of course that is still not enough for most... My favorite is when they jump out of the carpool lane to pass and get caught in regular traffic before they pass me completely. Call it what you want, I call it happiness. I am paying for the right to obey the law in the carpool lane each month when I give the bank a payment on my Prius. It is amazing how selective most people are about obeying the law, they won't cross the double yellow line, but 85+ is okay... Kind of like the ILLEGAL Immigrant issue, what part of breaking the LAW confuses the Masses...

 

'Flow of traffic' is a legal term used often to justify speeding out here, usually erroneously. On high volume city streets the flow of traffic is sometimes considerably faster than the posted speed limit of 35mph. The police will typically take this into consideration before issuing a ticket, the logic being that everybody doing the same speed (more or less) is safer than a wide speed differential. However the law makes no such exception for freeway traffic - if you are driving 66mph in a 65mph zone, you are technically speeding. And if you are driving 80 to 85 in that same zone, 'potential', you are quite clearly breaking the law and a hazard to everyone else on the road. The argument you posit is substantially undermined by your self-admitted defiance of the existing laws in our state. I hope you do end up buying a Prius - it may calm you down and lighten that lead foot. It did wonders for my wife's bad driving habits.

As for the article, I was interviewed for it by phone. It was clear from the questions asked what the tone of the article was to be - Amanda (the author) had no interest in any information that ran counter to the slant of her angle. I tried to win her over, Prius faithful, to no avail. C'est la vie.

 

This is from the California Vehicle Code:


21655.5. (a) The Department of Transportation and local authorities, with respect to highways under their respective jurisdictions, may authorize or permit exclusive or preferential use of highway lanes for high-occupancy vehicles. Prior to establishing the lanes, competent engineering estimates shall be made of the effect of the lanes on safety, congestion, and highway capacity.

(f) It is the intent of the Legislature, in amending this section, to stimulate and encourage the development of ways and means of relieving traffic congestion on California highways and, at the same time, to encourage individual citizens to pool their vehicular resources and thereby conserve fuel and lessen emission of air pollutants.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jim1eye @ Apr 11 2006, 06:54 AM) [snapback]237982[/snapback]</div>

This is the same "flow of traffic" you see on I95 (just don't do it in Fairfax county... :lol: ).

Before you start speeding visiting the left coast, this is an LA think only. Cops lives on their paychecks with speeding tickets up here in the SF Bay Area. They even tell local News reporters to anounce that they will crack down on drivers speeding over 1 mph... its scare tactics. But when they do catch you, no mercy here.

In SF Bay Area, I see about 5 cars pulled over for about 50 miles of highway I travel every time. So don't say I didn't warn you...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jim1eye @ Apr 11 2006, 06:54 AM) [snapback]237982[/snapback]</div>

This is the code section:

However, it must be read in the context of the entire Vehicle Code which also states:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ribbs @ Apr 11 2006, 11:20 AM) [snapback]238034[/snapback]</div>

I wouldn't call myself a hazard to the people going the same speed as me, or the people passing me in the left lane, or even the people to the right of me that I'm passing. We're in different lanes. I've been driving quite a while and have never been in an accident, despite always speeding. What are the odds! Quite high actually.

That traffic flow isn't synonymous with speed limit? That argument is true.

I've been driving a 2006 Civic Hybrid for the last 5 months and I am indeed much lighter-footed than when I had my Jetta. I drive the same speeds but accelerate more gently and coast when I can.

Well most of the replies in this thread seem to suggest her opinion was right -- hybrid drivers drive slowly in HOV lanes and piss people off.