Why Can't Other Plug-In Hybrids Copy Chevy Volt's All-Electric Running?

The battery in the up coming, longer EV range Volt is actually smaller and lighter. The CS is also improved by the generation family engines GM is now making, and it uses regular gas, which is big for the US market. MPG isn't Prius good, but few hybrids are that good. Besides, as EV range increases, CS MPG becomes less important. It's kinda of like buying a back up generator for your house. With an unreilible grid, how efficient that generator is is a big consideration. Power goes out only once a year, you probably care more about the cost to buy it than how much fuel you will use.

Isn't the Rav4 EV constrained by its onboard charger, and lack of fast charging.
I take a 600 mile trip to my parents a couple times a year. Google maps says it is a around a 9 hour trip, which would be without traffic or stops for fuel. I think 11hrs was the longest it took. A Tesla S85 would require 3 charge stops, which would add an hour, and then maybe another hour for the not as direct route. So, maybe two hours more, but there are advantages. Extended stops will likely be good for my wife's back. The route would be going around most of RT95, so there will be less stress there, and perhaps more scenic.

Perhaps you can trade them in for dogs? Don't know, you are SOL.

Same here, and it is what I pictured a PHV would be when the Volt was first announced.

It had a shot at beating the Volt if it was available.

 

the ford energi's don't run all ev?

 

Yes, I'll give you an analogy. Corvette vs Corolla. Corvette qualifies for $7,500 tax credit and Corolla doesn't. This is what's happening with Volt and Prius.

Sounds like someone hasn't test driven a PiP and just going by online misconception.

It is a blended PHV like PiP but with stronger EV power and speed. As a result, both EV and HV efficiency dropped along with cargo space.

 

The states in which the PPI is available represent 60% of Prius sales according to Toyota. If available nationwide, and the take rate compared to the Prius held in those states, some of which had plugin incentives, a 40% increase in PPI sales might have possible.

Actually looking at the numbers, it seems I've been overestimating how well the Prius PHV has done in my mind. A 40% bump might let it edge out the Volt last year, but not beat it in the previous ones.
Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

 

Though, it doesn't take into consideration that Volt gets TRIPLE the tax-credit incentive.

The goal is to achieve profitable sales to mainstream consumers without any type of subsidy.

 

How does the Volt's subsidy amount have bearing of PPI sales? By making the longer EV range PHV more affordable, it hurts PPI sales. That is a factor, but the people want longer EV range, and battery prices have been dropping under the subsidies. The Prius recieved subsidies as soon as it went to market in Japan, and Toyota wasn't blind sided the US plugin ones. They had at least enough time to adjust their pricing of the PPI in light of the subsidy amounts and the expected price of the Volt. Considering Toyota should have had lower R&D expenses in making a plugin add-on to a well designed hybrid, than others working on a whole new model, there should have been more wiggle room on the price. The Prius had already gotten into the profitable phase.

Yes, the goal is a profitable car that a large portion of the public can afford. It took the Prius until the second generation to get there, and it had a lot of help from the Japan and US governments. PHVs and BEVs(plus FCVs if they had been around) are now getting that help, and are just getting to release their second generations.

Toyota fans just aren't happy that the Prius PHV isn't being favored by subsidies this time around, and that must the reason why its sales haven' been as good as the others. It can't be because the car isn't available nationwide, and those in the unfavored states have to pay extra to get one. After plans of a nationwide roll out were pulled. The 1.5 Prius may have been special order only, but were there extra fees to get one in certain areas of the country?

Several former Prius owners here now have a Volt. At least one had had a PPI. Perhaps it is time some should actually listen to why they choose the Volt over the PPI or sticking with the Prius.

 

I am not happy how the plugin incentive was structured. We are giving out $7,500 to buy Leaf where it would emit as high as 34-36 MPG gas cars. For Volt, it would emit more as it's EV miles are 25% higher.

Because of how the incentive promoted, we have caricatured plugins with oversized battery and tiny cargo trunk spaces or 4 seaters, on the market.

Because of that, Toyota would be forced to sell PiP lower than a regular Prius. I am guessing that's why they chose not to roll it out nationwide.

Should other plugin hybrids run all electric like Volt, disregarding emission? No. They should give respect to the environment especially in the green market.

 

Carbon emissions aren't the sole reason for the battery subsidy. National security and domestic economy are others improved by switching from Foreign oil to domestic electric.

Toyota had to discount the PPI in some areas because people didn't want it. I haven't heard of any discounts in California with the HOV incentive. That state has a lower carbon intensive grid than most, and people bought the PPI for HOV access with no intention of plugging in.

 

In all of the nation, EV driving will give you lower emmissions than the fleet average.
If all of your sales are coming at the cost of a Prius, that is one thing.
However, Prius sales are only something like 2.5%.

Tesla is drawing in the Audi, BMW, Mercedes crowd.
Volt is grabbing a bit of that, plus Lexus, Infinity, and yes, some Prius sales.

The EVs are disrupting typical fleet sales, while hybrids stalled.
If you want to promote emission savings, you would encourage Toyota to produce a vehicle that would capture some of the low hanging fruit others are grabbing.

 

Yet, they are against hydrogen and FCV that achieves the same and there is no subsidy (expired) for FCV.

 

The subsidy expired because the promised cars to take advantage of it never showed up.

The Volt was expensive when it showed up. The Leaf's price was a little better. With the subsidy, the middle class was at least able to swing one. If the expired federal FCV subsidy was still in place, the Mirai would still cost somebody in the mid to high $40k. FCVs simply cost more. Some people were annoyed the Model S got to use the tax credit. At least there were cheaper plugins for the masses. There is no cheap FCV to point to and say that even the little people can take advantage of the program. It would be a tax credit for just the rich.

Some that got a Volt or leaf were unable to claim the full tax credit. More would be saying the same with the higher FCV credit, if they could afford the car.

 

Right, Hybrid sales are stalled while others are way up!

Tesla Model S U.S. Sales
2012 - 2558 ^
2013- 18,195 ^
2014 - 16,550 ^
2015 YTD * 2900 ^
Tesla China has a Record Unsold Inventory of 2301 cars | CarNewsChina.com - China Auto News

Chevrolet Volt U.S. Sales
2010 - 326
2011 - 7671
2012 - 23,461
2013 - 23,094
2014 - 18,805
2015 YTD * 1235

Toyota Prius U.S. Sales
2002 - 20,119
2003 - 24,627
2004 - 53,991
2005 - 107,897
2006 - 106,971
2007 - 181,221
2008 - 158,884
2009 - 139,682
2010 - 140,928
2011 - 128,064
2012 - 147,507
2013 - 145,172
2014 - 122,776
2015 YTD * 14,386

 

Your data is incomplete.
You left out the biggest selling BEV and cherry picked a production constrained company and a model that has announced their next gen model.

Overall, your Prius data actually supports that hybrid sales have flattened, although Prius is not the entire hybrid market.

For more info on how hybrid sales overall have stagnated... Could U.S. Hybrid Car Sales Be Peaking Already--And If So, Why?

As for plugin sales, those increased to 120,000 last year, about an 18% YOY increase as I recall.

 

If I could have a dollar for every vehicle sold, I would choose the "flattened" dollars every time. I have fun every time that I drive my 2013 Prius on city streets stop sign to stop sign, red light to red light, highways posted at 45mph (I drive 55mph), and traffic that won't get out of my way!

 

Imagine how much gas consumption and emission we can cut by having $1,500 tax credit for a regular Prius?

That will get 5 Prius owners for one Volt. Emission would be at least 7 times lower and about 4 times lower in gas consumption.

Ahem, the uneven playing ground created by Plugin tax credit is disrupting.

Remove it and battery manufacturing loan and factory tax breaks but leave the renewable electricity incentives (even with incentives for oil). See how EVs would sell.

When Prius started, the tax credit was $3,150 max for 60,000 vehicles. It lasted about a year before phasing out.

The current Plugin tax credit is $7,500 max for 200,000 vehicles and it has been going on for 5 years.

 

I'm not quite sure what the point of those numbers. Surely the 2015 ones can be thrown out as being early, wit high seasonality involved. We have all seen the chart of hybrids from introduction to plug-ins, and growth rates are much higher with plug-ins.

Electric Car Sales Growing Much Faster Than Hybrid Sales

So we should look at today's numbers and look at the future
hybrids plug-ins percent
2007 - 350,358 - 0
2011 - 269,310 - 17.080, 6%
2012 - 434,489 - 52,607, 12%
2013 - 495,771 - 97,507, 20%
2014 - 452,152 - 119,710, 26%

As you can see hybrids plateued and declined from their 2007 levels, not exceeding them again until 2012, wiht the influx of many new models - prius v, prius c, c-max, gen II camry hybrid. It looks like 2013 is another platau with forecasts calling for lower sales in 2015 in the US. These lower sales are based partially on low gas prices, but also with a dirth of new hybrids, and the prius being a drag on the market, until the redesign at the end of the year. Average growth 2011-2014 19%/year.

Plug-ins have a much happier story. Starting at a low level they have shown average yearly growth of 91%. Growth appears to have slowed considerably and the volt is a drag this year as people wait for the gen II. Toyota's plug-in sales will likely slide worse than chevy's with the end of the rav4 ev, and not much muscle behind an old design prius phv, that will wait until the end of next year for an update. Bright spots are the bmw i3 and the removal of production constraints on the tesla S. 2016-2018 look like high growth years for the plug-in market.

 

The Prius started sales in the U.S. In 2000. They sold 60,000 sometime in 2003, or 4 years.
Yes, the incentives are greater now, part of that is simple inflation and part of that is the need.

As for sales without the incentives, we would need to look at sales in a nation without those incentives, or wait for another couple/three years until the incentives are gone.

The Prius continued to get one of the most important incentives in California, HOV Lane access, although I am not sure when that finally ended.

 

Wrong. My dealer had a PIP on the lot to gauge interest back when they first hit the market, I test drove it when I dropped my Prius off for some maintenance, there was a bit of a line so I had time. It was fully charged and I only managed to make it off the Toyota lot before the engine kicked in as I accelerated hard out into traffic. Once at the 45MPH speed limit the engine kicked off and drove electric, tried to speed up to pass a slower car, engine kicked on to augment the acceleration. I could stay on all electric mode when we drove through my neighbor hood and back at about 25 mph except on the driveway up to my house which is a moderate hill climb, the engine kicked on to make it up the hill. About half way back out of my neighborhood about a 5 mile drive since we left the dealer, and the battery was gone and the car went right back to normal Prius operation, as in gas engine on nearly all the time except at stop lights. The acceleration felt nearly the same as the regular Prius, the handling was nearly identical. While the battery lasted it was sort of good I guess, but the engine still came on way too often, but once the battery was gone it felt like I was driving my own Prius with slightly more engine down time when accelerating away from stop lights. I wasn't impressed and I told them that.

 

Those thresholds sound like PiP when NOT charged, operating in HV mode. It will drive just like a regular Prius.

A charged PiP gives you about 4x EV power. To put it in term of HV mode, HSI displays PWR region when ICE sounds becomes prominent. EV power of PiP goes beyond that equivalent PWR region.

 

I don't know about toyota fans in general, but the toyota lobby seems upset and some on this forum keep buying what the lobby is selling.

The federal tax credit rules were lowered for toyota as toyota wanted to build a vehicle smaller than the minimum size (5kwh) the DOE wanted. That just is historically correct, toyota wasn't punished they were allowed to get federal tax money. In california, state and federal incentives get the prius phv $909/kwh ($4000), the 2015 volt gets $526/kwh($9000), tesla S 60kwh gets $300/kwh($10000 +4zev($8000)) or about . Most prius phvs got hov stickers. Toyota's assumptions were battery prices would stay high was encapulated in a carnegy study toyota funded. GM and Nissan stated to that studies authors that prices were already lower and going down. It turns out the CM assumptions were far off of what battery costs have done. Its a shame the lobby talking points wants toyota to be paid a lot more for doing less, and has some people believing this bs.

Toyota gets more government money /kwh battery than any other plug-in maker, but customers would prefer larger batteries. Toyota can correct these bad assumptions on battery costs and user preference on the gen II prius phv or other plug-in.

What we have vis-a-vis the Toyota study at carnegy mellon is that the federal electric vehicle incentives of approximately a one time charge of $10B spent over many years is working to drastically lower the price of batteries. Sure the program could be aided in effectiveness, but the program is actually working. Chainging it to add more money to smaller batteried blended phevs would be counter productive though.