evolution vs creation vs Intelligent Design

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 13 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]239459[/snapback]</div>

God gives a general plan of the future.. Like "I'm leading you to the promised land", but he never tells you every step.... He forces you to make choices and step out to excercise faith. Using faith allows us to navigate with our spirit man where "deep calleth to deep".

Speaking "in the stead of God" is grossly abused and misused.... and those who do so will be accountable.
Its a fearful thing to say... God told me this or that....
You can say "I feel God may be saying this or that", but to say it with absolute authority is fearful.

Only those who have a track record of speaking accurately in the stead of God should be trusted.. the ones who speak incorrectly are only confusing and taking away from those who do.

Too many use the name of God to build their own name and glory and will be held accoutable.

Its sad the mainstread church is still so confused... Every time you see God start a new move or take the church a different direction, its usually done with a small obscure crowd who is hid away somewhere seeking and loving God... not the big tele-evangelists and major religions.

Don't get me wrong... God speaks to his church, but as in the old days.... there is much politics with the name of religion.

God will decide who knows him and who only professes... its a scary thing to follow the wrong crowd.
Bottom line, if you don't have a relationship yourself, how do you know the preacher you follow does?

How can you bear witness with his, if you have nothing yourself?
(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus passed many with diseases without healing them, he only did what his Father was doing.

(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Luke 6:46 KJV) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Scary stuff:
(Luke 13:25 KJV) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

(Luke 13:26 KJV) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

(Luke 13:27 KJV) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

(Luke 13:28 KJV) There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Just because you go to church, does not mean you know God.
I get sick sick sick and tired of those who play church.. its better to stay home and worship the devil than go fake it every sunday.

(Rev 3:15 KJV) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

(Rev 3:16 KJV) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


Don't get disenchanted from the many who profess Lord and think they are full of it.... just because man if frail and inaccurate and shortsighted, don't mistake that God is too.

Its "impossible" to walk the christian walk and do as many on this thread mock because of seeing so many christians that don't.
I takes walking in the "spirit".
(Gal 5:16 KJV) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Thats an impossible order unless your doing it with Gods power instead of yours.
Your power is no match against the power of evil, but Gods power has already killed all the power of evil... all we have to do is walk in it.

Trying to figure all this out is even impossible without the power of God to reveal it... it is all hidden to a carnal mind... its like having a radio that can pull in unseen signals, but having no electricity to turn it on.

Don't get frustrated that none of this makes sense if you have no electricity.

This is my last scripture, but it is necessary to explain the rest that has been said.

Your right, this cannot be explained to a carnal mind.

(Rom 8:1 KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(Rom 8:3 KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

(Rom 8:4 KJV) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Rom 8:5 KJV) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

(Rom 8:6 KJV) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

(Rom 8:7 KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(Rom 8:8 KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Rom 8:9 KJV) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(Rom 8:10 KJV) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Rom 8:11 KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Rom 8:12 KJV) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Rom 8:13 KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 8:14 KJV) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Sorry for the hijack.... Ill try to be good.

 

Trying to get the topic back on topic...

The more you study and know about medicine or the human body, the more you are in awe of its synergistic and harmonic complexity to work together... how some parts sacrifice for the saving of the other parts.... your body is its own little nation! You have front line infantry and second, then third, you have all types of mechanisms in play constantly that negotiate with the environment around you to maintain homeostasis or perfect balance and harmony within the body.

When you study nature... how a plant operates, how it gets its energy and processes it, animals.... space..... it appears " unless your totally blind" that creation keeps checks and balances and maintains itself within specified tolerances.

We have been given enough "creative" ablilities being created in the image of the creator, that we too create other things in our own image...

Look at a car... it even has two eyeballs or lights? It breaths as it takes in oxygen and uses it in conjuction with its chemical ignition to oxygenate and extract the energy out of products as does our body. It then has an exhaust tract where the waste is removed. The digestion is already done for us in advance at the oil refineries, but if not for that, we would have a digestive system to the car.

Look at a computer..... the hardrive is the long term memory.."the subconcious".. the ram is the conciousness. Although you have tons of information in your subconcious, none of it is utilized until you pull it up into ram.... as I get older... I need more ram! :lol:

All of our creations work off of electricity as does our body to communicate within and without.

Even the houses we build are a type and shadow of our own spirits that live within our fleshly body.
We have rooms where we keep and store stuff and rooms where we recreate. We have windows to look out and doors to lock in.

Everything is a beautiful type and shadow of something deeper.

So what is the "life" force that drives and maintains all this?

If you say it maintains itself and the creator when on vacation, then thats your perception.

If you say it maintains itself and there "is no" creator, and that we are our own gods... thats absurd and you you must re-evaluate the definition of a God.

Just because you do what you want, when you want, to who you want, does not make you a God....

Did you forget about the breath you breath?

In all of our arrogance and pride, we forget our existence on this planet in this physical body is totally dependent upon whether our heart continues to beat and we can breath our next breath?

Do you control your heart beat?... how long can you exist with someone covering your mouth and nose?

Life is so fragile and we have been made so utterly dependent, yet we still are so arrogant to think we control it all.


Is there intelligent life in space checking in and peering in to make sure we are ok?.. if so, who made them?

The issue is that we would rather believe "anything" sometimes, rather than to be in subjection to a God we can't see nor understand. Many of us are so angry with the supposed God who "may" exist, that we go off in a rebellion streak to get him to prove himself to us.

Our parental figures have taken so much advantage that we could never believe a "real God" could have ever allowed it and now we only trust in ourselves.


Do you believe that if a tree fell somewhere and you didn't see it, that it didn't happen?

Are you a goldfish and only admit what you can see from your bowl is what exist?

Even what we have developed in the last 200 years would have been deemed impossible and poppycock to consider if it had been brought up several hundred years ago....

If you were a timeless God that had time itself at your disposal to render as you wish, and created all things for your pleasure, how would you run things?


Would you make sure that nothing bad ever happened to anyone and there were no tears or sorrow or pain and suffering and that no one had to work or slave or be enslaved?

Well thats the way it was before sin and the way it will be again... but for now, God is doing a new thing that all of creation is tripping out over.
(1 Pet 1:12 KJV) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

We are a special created entity that will have authority that even the present angels do not possess.
(2 Tim 2:12 KJV) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Its one thing to be created and be in subjection to the creator, its quite another to reign "with Him".

Similiar to how a queen reigns with the King.... we will be Married to the creator.. We will be the "bride" of the creator.
(Rev 19:7 KJV) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

(Rev 19:8 KJV) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The injustices and pain you see around you will make the difference later.

How do you deal with things when it happens to you?...
How do you deal with others when it happens to them?...

The angels have had it easy... they were made perfect and can see far more than we and understand far more so its easy for them to obey an all powerful loving creator.


But we who were fashioned of the dust and created in darkness and stumble and grope around trying to find our way, will have a much higher honor than the angels when we make it through.

(Rom 8:18 KJV) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

(Rom 8:19 KJV) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

If you say there is no God... how do you know?

Others claim there is a God because they know and can feel him... doesn't a positive cancel out a negative?
If I see something and you don't, does that make you correct and me wrong?

Are so many people all over the globe really hallucinating?

If you want to say you can't see how there is a God.. I can accept that... but to say thier is none as a fact, is the statement of a fool. Don't be a fool!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 14 2006, 01:02 AM) [snapback]239588[/snapback]</div>

windsrtings,

Like I stated my personal take on all organized religions is the same. Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam etc all these religions are ridden with so many denominations, which are indicative of many interpretations taken from variety of different sources, studied by many theologians with re-translated texts from archaic languages in many shapes and forms. All religions adhering to Tanakh, Old Testament, Sanskrit etc with it's particular distinct congregation trying to prove the legitimacy of their text and their origin. This by far is the classic example of behemoth void that stretches within the so called religious pluralism. Even though through centuries each religion claims embracing ecumenism till today people dispute, condemn and fight over their choice of religion. Hardly a convincing legacy. All religions are complacent of hypocrisy and massive denials.

I'm not intending to demean the virtues presented in sacred scriptures, they all universally apply in one way or the other to the betterment of man. Unfortunately man is screwing things up royally through intolerance and strictness to one or other interpretation.
The inclemency and ecclesiasticism perpetuates those divisions even further. All so called 'evil' things are being scantily confronted by organized religions as they continue indefinitely. Hypocrisy marches in pair with the powerful and the rich. Hence the arrival of religious revolutionaries that noticed the maltreats of religious hierarchies, hence the Reformation and birth of Protestantism etc. One can't escape noticing those trends in all religions. Social injustices and elitism are vaguely being undertaken seriously by organized religions even within Animism or Confucianism.

Verses taken literally from scared scriptures are subjective as they have metaphorical meanings with hidden symbolisms, if your intention is to convince anyone to your religious choice than you should disclose your denomination. I have no clue if you're a Baptist, Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian.


"Only those who have a track record of speaking accurately in the stead of God should be trusted.. the ones who speak incorrectly are only confusing and taking away from those who do."

How does one know about this accuracy and correctness? It all may just be a power of suggestion based on individual take.

"I get sick sick sick and tired of those who play church.. its better to stay home and worship the devil than go fake it every sunday"

Agree on misuse of rituals, it's like flag waving, cross wearing etc far from emanating the truth from the inner parts of ones heart and soul. Extraverted superficialities.

"Sorry for the hijack.... Ill try to be good."

No big deal, I was hoping that you could address airportkid's post. You're far from being bad.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 14 2006, 08:51 AM) [snapback]239711[/snapback]</div>

The first mistake we make is trying to imagine ourselves in "god's" shoes. How could we even begin to contemplate such a collosal conceit, that we could second-guess the "mind" of an entity no one can even begin to describe in the most coarse of terms.

Yet, if by some bolt of lightning I were made a "god" in the conventional definition of an omnipotent mind, there are three things I would NEVER do:

Create entities whose only function is to praise and worship me. Of all the puerile attributes accorded "god," this takes the prize. A desperately insecure human personality with an emotional age not much older than four years might undertake that kind of creation, but so abnormal would such an affectation be that anyone so afflicted would be put under psychiatric care, or advised to seek it. Imagine what parents would think of a son or daughter arranging their GI Joes and Barbie dolls in rapt circles about them and pretending that they are being worshipped.

Create a system that can't run without constant intervention. There isn't an inventor or engineer in all history who would consider their creation anything but a worthless failure if it required constant meddling, superintending, tinkering or adjusting. The Prius would be a worthless pile of scrap steel if in order to operate it we had to manually tweak its operating system constantly with a hundred knobs and levers. The most prized and elegant creations are the ones that run smoothly without requiring any operator at all.

Create a system FOR MY PLEASURE that could never surprise me because I know exactly what will happen and when. What pleasure is there in that? How many of us WELCOME the blabbermouths who tell us how the movie ends? Any universe I would build would have strong elements of randomness.

I would be supremely insulted were some second-guesser to infer that I would do any of those three things, because to my mind, they are things only a seriously emotionally crippled mind would do, a simple mind would do, a stupid mind would do.

But all of those are what I, a human being suddenly given the powers of a "god," would never do. There's no telling what some actual "god" would do.

That last sentence is perhaps the most important one of all, so I'll repeat it:

There's NO TELLING WHAT SOME ACTUAL "GOD" WOULD DO.

Period.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

Historically, the "super natural" has been the blanket term for "natural things that we don't understand yet". The universe that we live in is the only reality that exists. To say religion's job is not to tell us about that universe is akin to saying religion is fiction, isn't it? The affect on the human psyche is something that I don't dispute. The notion of a God is a very powerful way to control a person. Religion is a powerful psychological and social tool. It's produced levels of hatred and intolerance that would never have been possible via logic. Sure, it does good things. For example, religion drives many to perform charitable acts. However, reason can also lead people to the same actions. On the other hand, the Inquisition is a good example of the kind of thing that would be impossible to achieve without blind irrational obedience and social acceptance of the most ridiculous claims. It's also a good example of how the "quantity of followers" is never evidence of the "rightness" of any religion. Social implications aside, it's the claims that many religions make about reality (e.g. the world is going to end and God is going to smite everyone but the believers) that really scare me. There are many "conservative" (or "extremist" if you're not Christian) folks who take their holy scripture as a predictor of the future... the future of our actual real world, not a fantastic "super natural" one. Religion teaches nonsensical rules about how we behave in the natural world. For example, don't eat a certain kind of meat. Or don't use electricity on a certain day. Or don't show your face if you're a female. Or face a certain direction at a certain time. The people who are doing those things actually believe that those actions will have an impact on their natural lives. History shows us how dangerous that kind of irrational obedience can be when the rules conflict with evidence-based reason (e.g. substituting prayer for medical attention).

I do like your analogy though. You're right, a plumber may have advice for you in that case, but a surgeon would likely give you a better result. So in the natural vs. super natural interpretation, changing your behavior in the natural world (where we live) based on the Bible (guide to the super natural) is akin to treating your colon cancer by reading a two-thousand year old plumber's manual!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 14 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]239841[/snapback]</div>

The bottom line is "who does God endorse?"... there are manu voices out there but until you see the hand and finger of God stopping the power of evil in its tracks and you see the fruits of Gods personality, you have no proof that any religion is real. Jesus knew it would be difficult.. thats why he gave the signs of how to tell.. "the fruits".
Paul also recognized the confusion and so said:

Until you see the power of God backing up the words, they mean little.

 

Another thought...

Compare the way we deal with the constitution versus the Bible in this country. Here we have two books with similar properties:

• Real old
• Written (supposedly) by some smart folks
• Do this, do that, blah blah blah
• Outdated in a coupla places

Solution #1
As various rules in the book become difficult to interpret due to changes in human understanding, we augment the original writing with new clarifications and sometimes outright modification to better apply to the modern world. When different parties disagree over the rules in the book, they enlist the help of experts in the rules to determine whether a rule was actually broken or not. Those decisions are then added to the original book and its clarifications to make it more useful in the future.

Solution #2
As various rules in the book become difficult to interpret due to changes in human understanding, individual factions each develop their own interpretations and clarifications. None of those interpretations are written down, so as time goes on the interpretations diverge more and more. Some people individually decide that they will only follow a subset of the rules in the book for convenience. When different parties disagree over the rules in the book, they do not argue over it because it is socially unacceptable to dispute the authority of the rule book. However, some people are so passionate about their interpretation of the rule book that they will kill others or themselves because they think the book tells them to do that.

You know how you hear about old-time laws that say you must feed your horse 5/7 as much buckwheat as your oldest slave, etc. etc.? Can you imaging trying to take one of those laws as written and trying to apply it to, say, Internet taxation? And yet, there are folks in this thread quoting way, way older things that nobody's willing to re-interpret and write down. Imaging a cop reading you the horse-feeding law when he pulls you over for expired tabs. That's what these bible-quoting folks look like to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Euge @ Apr 14 2006, 10:16 PM) [snapback]240061[/snapback]</div>

Your right, religion can be an extremly powerful manipulative weapon.... look at the middle east... look at our history... but just because that power has been grossly abused, doesn't make religion not real.

There is alot of false to confuse the real.
There are churches on every corner and they all proclaim the truth, yet they all speak a different word.

The fact is.. there are similiarities that make them all the same and some of the other differences dont' matter.. but yet some do!

Churches are at fault for following thier own agenda and protocol rather than seek God every service.

This confusion is what makes people think there is no God.. because it appears the churches all do thier own thing and they don't agree.

But to say there is no God as suggested in parts of this thread.. is absurd and very arrogant and foolish.

(Psa 14:1 KJV) To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

(Prov 12:15 KJV) The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

(Prov 17:16 KJV) Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

(Eccl 2:14 KJV) The wise man's eyes are in his head; but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.

Some people are blind and until they get desperate and ask to have thier eyes opened, they will never get it.

 

I do not hate christians, and I do not lump all christians together. I hate religions that preach or practice violence. Violence has been a very strong theme throughout Christian history. It was Protestants who burned innocent women at the stake in Salem, and every army in any country where there are christians has both Catholic and protestant chaplains to "explain" to the soldiers why they are exempt from the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I also hate the practice of using carefully-selected excerpts from the Bible to justify depriving entire classes of people of their civil and human rights, while utterly ignoring the prohibitions that the bigots want to engage in (such as coveting their neighbor's nice person and blatant consumerism).

I also deeply resent people telling me I am going to hell because I don't believe their own particular flavor of religious fairy tale.

I deeply respect christians who live the principles voiced by Jesus: Nonviolence, generosity, non-materialism, non-judgementalism, universal love, etc.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 14 2006, 08:04 PM) [snapback]239934[/snapback]</div>

I think the word "worship" is often misused or misunderstood. Adam and Eve had no formalistic worship. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, none of them were ever ordered by God to perform ritualistic acts to appease God. And yet, the Bible declared them righteous! It was only after he took the nation of Israel into a special covenant relationship that he instituted a system of formal worship. But, for the most part, all God really asks is our respect. Is that a bad thing?
For example: we might not agree with EVERYTHING that the US government does. But yet, most of us loyally pay our taxes, obey the laws of the land, and are respectful of our "leaders". I'm sure if you were ever given an audience with the president of the United States, you would be gracious, polite, and respectful, due to the office he holds. And, that's really all that God asks, and he is infinitely more powerful and important than the president.
All God has ever asked is that he be given the respect due the Creator. He doesn't NEED worship. He doesn't lack for anything. Our respect/worship doesn't add to his power, just as our not worshipping him cannot take away anything from him. But, he DESERVES it. As our Creator, only he knows completely what is "good" or "bad" for us, and his laws only serve as a protection for us. Satan would have us believe, as he did Adam and Eve, that God's laws are restrictive, or are causing us to miss out on something good, when in fact, he withholds nothing good from us. It is when we finally reconcile in our hearts that his laws are for our own good, and try to live lives that show we respect his laws, that we are truly giving him the honor/praise/worship he asks of us.
He DID NOT create us to worship him! If he wanted that, he would have created us without free will, as robots. Our "only function" is NOT to worship God. He desires us to have full, fulfilling lives of good food, drink, friends, satisfying work, and time for pleasures/entertainment. And for that, yes, I DO praise him. So, get off that!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Euge @ Apr 14 2006, 10:16 PM) [snapback]240061[/snapback]</div>

I would disagree with you in part, but will agree that it is natural for us to ascribe things to a known quantity rather than a new one we have to work to think up. But that's not a problem unique to religion; it exists even in science.

Saying that religion's job is not to teach us about the universe is not the same as saying religion is false. There are many real things that do not exist to teach us about the universe ... your Prius, for example. But beyond the physical things that are purpose-built for a reason other than teaching us about the universe (your computer monitor, the building you are in, the chair you are on, etc.), there are several branches of human knowledge that are not there to clarify the mechanisms and structure of the physical world: philosophy, ethics, morality, and political theory to name a few. Add in other human endeavors that are worthwhile but hard to quantify, such as man's affinity for art, music and literature, and you find there is actually very little about our lives that exist to teach us about the physical world in the way science does.

The problem with the "creation or evolution" debate is that it polarizes the argument, and the pro-evolution folks are as often as not simply atheists who want to, as one poster put it, do "... everything I can to promote reason as an alternative to religion."

In other words, they are not animated by a desire for truth as much as they are animated by an animosity toward religion. You may say that's not any different than a believer who is intent on promoting his view, to which I say you are exactly right. Both are acting from a standpoint of belief rather than honest inquiry.

Well, the Inquisition, as horrible as it was, is a poor example. The number of people actually killed by the Inquisition is surprisingly low. If numbers matter to you in this type of example, you might count up all the individuals killed in the Inquisition (about 300 if memory serves me right), the witch burnings in Europe (about 300,000 ... again working from memory), the Salem witch trials (about 20, I think). Compare that to the only widespread experiment of officially atheistic government ... 20th century communism. Lenin, Stalin and Mao, all avowed atheists and heads of states that officially embraced rational thought, killed far more than all the western religious leaders in the 1900 years before they took office. Depending on who's numbers you accept, the number is upwards of 50 million (there are some disputes on this; Stalin is said to have killed from 12 to 25 million).

Perhaps you can point to another society where your ideas worked; I can't think of any. Know any good atheist utopias out there?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 15 2006, 07:17 AM) [snapback]240149[/snapback]</div>

It would help if you actually knew something about the Salem Witch Trials. No one was burned at the stake. Under 20 people ... still a horrendous number for that small community ... were either hanged or "pressed" to death (crushed to death under a board). They were tried in civil court and convicted largely on the eye-witness accounts of some young girls, and were not convicted by church hierarchy or any church body. Then, the community realized the incident was a grave injustice, and worked to prevent it from happening again, primarily because of the sermons on the subject. (These distinctions are blurred by the connected nature of the church-state relationship, so modern Americans have a hard time understanding them, but they are important distinctions).

Secondly, you should learn something about Christian theology if you are intent on saying what it teaches. You don't have to accept it, but you should not misrepresent it. That's the same advice I give Christian students about "evolution," by the way.

To start with, ask any Christian minister about Augustine's notion of a just war. And then follow up with the difference between "murder" and "killing in self defense". You could even read where Jesus gave the pass to a Roman soldier to continue as a soldier, even though he was questioning if he could be a follower of Jesus and do so.

And then realize that the only reason you will go to hell, no matter what anyone else says, is only if God sends you there. No one else gets to choose.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Apr 15 2006, 05:47 PM) [snapback]240318[/snapback]</div>

Huh?

While I agree that the Bible is truth, it is not comprehensive truth. We cannot assume that something did not exist because it is not detailed in the Bible.

We can see from the very beginning, in the comparison of the sacrifices brought by Cain and Abel, that there was formal worship going on very early. We don't know what form it took before or after that, but altars were made and the sacrifices given, and Abel's was favored by God. We can infer other formal worship practices from those very formal acts.

And Isaac, while tied to that altar while Abraham sharpens his knife, may have a different take on the "formal worship" issue. Abram was indeed ordered by God to perform a ritualistic act.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 15 2006, 07:17 AM) [snapback]240149[/snapback]</div>

The violence thing is indeed a confusing matter.
It has to do with motive..and whether your doing "your" work or the Lords work.
In todays time, God deals differently than in the old days... The day of judgement if reserved for later and now is time for Grace... Unfortunately this only hardens people into thinking they can do anything they want and they assume there is no God since judgement is not released.

The Lord excecutes judgement... not man... but He excecuted it with the hand of man.. Today it is very confusing to live in a time of Grace, yet in a time of war.... Grace is only imputed to those who accept it. The law is against those who do not just as it was years ago.

But another confusing thing is that the Lord excecuted war even before the law was given.
Today's christian walk does not fight against flesh and blood... but as a nation we still have war.

In some instances killing is condemned, in others it is blessed... confusing indeed.
Scripture says the Lord is a man of war.. He led his people into battle many times.
David "killed" Golieth and was hailed a hero.
God even commanded nations be killed, every woman children and beast.
(Exo 32:27 KJV) And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

(Exo 32:28 KJV) And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

(Deu 3:2 KJV) And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

(Deu 3:3 KJV) So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

(Deu 2:33 KJV) And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

(Deu 2:34 KJV) And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Its a scary thing to Judge God... he is sovereign and gives life and takes it away....

The really fuzzy thing that throws us is that we think we have some kind of "right" to life.
We do not... it was freely given and it can be taken away.


Gods Love extends to those who will accept his name and authority and become part of his family, but even tho He loves the others that refuse him, they fall prey to thier own ways and evil that surrounds them if they refuse long enough.....


Unfortunately the way we are as humans, the more we prosper, the more independent and arrogant we often get against needing God... so God often has to strip us before we will humble ourselves....
Blessed is the man who believes without having to be stripped.

(Hosea 4:6 KJV) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

(Hosea 4:7 KJV) As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

(Hosea 4:8 KJV) They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.



It makes more sense if you remember that he is not willing that any should perish...
Yet many perish every day.

Some go because thier time is divinely appointed. others fall due to thier lack of knowledge and protection.



God does not strive with man forever.


Evil has always fought against us and Gods people.... God expects us to fight against "evil" not other men per se.
In fact the Word even states "cursed is the man who keeps his sword from battle."

Cowards who let evil overtake the land bought with blood has always been frowned upon.

Killing is not condoned when evil is not the target.. but "evil" is often mislabeled.

If anyone lets a robber come in your house and kill you children and you do nothing to stop them even if it means killing them by force.... because you think God tells you not to kill, you are missing it big time!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(keydiver @ Apr 15 2006, 05:47 PM) [snapback]240318[/snapback]</div>

Adam and Eve worshipped because the walked with God in the cool of the day.... true worship is not a form and ritual, its and exchange of the heart... every act of obedience is a higher form of worship than many would guess..

Relationship is worship.... ...
Formal worship is only good if worship is relayed in the heart first or during.

(Mat 15:9 KJV) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

(John 4:23 KJV) But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(John 4:24 KJV) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Worship is something that will happen forever in Heaven..... the more you can see God, the more natural it is to worship. Its only hard to worship if you can't see him. But the more he is revealed, the more it seems totally appropriate to worship.

A tiny tiny glimpse is the feeling you get when you see an array of snow capped mountains at sunset.... all you can say is "wow". Multiply that several thousand fold and your only beginning.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 15 2006, 07:17 AM) [snapback]240149[/snapback]</div>

That is but one example of a bad translation from the original Hebrew text.

The Hebrew text is: לֹא תִרְצָח

The proper translation is: "Thou shalt not murder."

Exodus Chapter 20

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Apr 16 2006, 01:08 PM) [snapback]240514[/snapback]</div>

OH wow!

IF that's the case.....

(actually, this rings a very faint bell from Catholic school days...)

Boy, too bad Abraham kicked that chick and his kid out eh? h34r:

 

The Bible can be used to support just about any viewpoint you like. In that sense, it is a neutral document, which a large number of sects abuse to justify views they already held, and actions they were already determined to take. As a pacifist, I dislike any religion that justifies war and other forms of violence, regardless of what they use as justification. And I respect people who reject violence, whether they be religious or not.

Note that, while most christian sects justify violence, there are a few that do not, and there are movements within some that do not. They all read the same Bible, but they take opposite lessons from it. There are also a few that do not believe in hell. Again, they read the same Bible but come to opposite conclusions based on what they read. Of course it makes it very difficult to argue with them, because each has such a narrow, and narrow-minded interpretation of the Bible that they'll all tell you you don't understand it. "Understanding" it means agreeing in all points with their interpretation of it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 16 2006, 02:08 AM) [snapback]240431[/snapback]</div>

Windstrings,
Again
You seem to be taking the quotes literally.
How would you respond to the fact that the Bible you are quoting (King James Version) is a translation of a translation were individual words could have been mistranslated?

"Many scholars working with Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew versions regard the KJV as a questionable version of the Bible. They postulate that its interest lies chiefly in making the language poetic or streamlined and is done at the cost of accuracy in translation. Futhermore, it is a translation of a translation, rather than a re-examination of all available fragments of scripture used to produce a translation that is closer to the original languages of the Bible. Because of the lack of recent linguistic work, the KJV is regarded as a poor representation of the original Scripture. Many of today's leading exegetes (Elizabeth Achtemeier, Walter Brueggemann, Marcus Borg, James L. Crenshaw, Robert W. Funk, Luke Timothy Johnson, John Dominic Crossan, and N.T. Wright) do not endorse the KJV for Masters or Doctoral-level exegetical work."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Apr 16 2006, 12:50 AM) [snapback]240415[/snapback]</div>

I was VERY well aware of both those accounts when I made that statement, and I stand by it. Abel was NOT ASKED by God to perform a sacrifice. He saw on his own accord the need for something to help atone for his parent's sin, but it was NOT required by God.
Also, I think its a stretch to call God's test of Abraham a ritualistic form of worship. There was no "ritual" associated with it, it was simply a test, which was never repeated. But, I actually think it proves my point, that what God really asks is our obedience and respect, not a ritualistic putting-on of piety, repetitive chanting, or any other mindless, formality with no real meaning. Abraham was DECLARED righteous by God BEFORE he offered up Isaac (Genesis 15:6), because he showed faith, and obeyed God's request for him to leave Ur. Thats not to say that he, and other faithful men of old, didn't build alters, offer up sacrifices, or perform other acts OF THEIR OWN ACCORD, to show their appreciation for what God had done for them, and their desire to atone for their inherited sinfulness.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(windstrings @ Apr 16 2006, 02:08 AM) [snapback]240431[/snapback]</div>

Good point, I had intended to mention the relationship Adam and Eve originally had with God, not one of ritualistic worship, but something much closer and more personal than that. The Bible alludes to the fact that perhaps every day, at the same time of the day, God would walk with them, perhaps teaching them, answering any of their questions, just being a "father" to them. I feel, personally, that eventually that is the way things will be again:
1 Corinthians 15:28 -  "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Jeremiah 31:33 - “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people."
Romans 8:21 - "the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God."