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It finally happened. Red Triangle of Death.

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by bryanv, Jun 21, 2015.

  1. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    I'm going to voice some general frustration here, because I feel like there's a tribal knowledge that just isn't well documented for newbs to the forum or Toyota service like me.


    It seems like there isn't just an authoritative "So you want to do your own service & troubleshooting on a legacy Toyota Hybrid? Here's your definitive guide to getting started and participating in this community." There's the essay on who should and who shouldn't buy the car -- but unfortunately that isn't something you find until you've got a problem with the car you've already purchased, and then ... well, you're in my situation where reading that is either confirming or sobering, depending on your situation -- but then you need to go a step further and get the tools to take care of the problem.

    My perception so far is that there isn't really anything explaining what tools you need, which tools are recommended as the best to use, or any sort of balanced 'here's the tradeoffs of picking each one', here's how you go about getting the info you'll need, and here's how you should format / post to the forum to skip all the infighting about what toolchain to pick, the risks of the software, etc.

    At this point in this thread, I know I need the DTC codes. I know I need the tool to get at them.

    I could go to autozone and have them read the codes off, I could take it to my repair shop of choice and have them do it, or I can get the tools I need to do it myself (which I'd prefer).

    It seems that of the ways to get the data, the techstream solution is the best of breed (vs. ODBII tool / Scangauge ii) but what are the options for getting a techstream setup going? I found a seller on Amazon shipping a cable / software for ~$26 with Prime. I bought it. But, what software is that? I don't know. What else am I going to need once that cable gets here? I don't know. I know that I'll need techstream, but I can't tell if that comes with the bundle I purchased or not. I know I'm going to need a 32bit windows OS running (at least XP). I have no idea if it'll work on Windows 8. I assume that as a community it would be prudent to recommend the Toyota software, and if the TechStream 2-day access is only $55, that's about 60% of what I'll pay in diagnostic fees (applicable to repair costs) at my trusted shop of choice. But again, my perception as an uninitiated, not-a-professional-automotive-tech type, this seems a bit confusing.

    I'm a software engineer by trade, a furniture maker & electronics tinkerer (I believe maker is the word people use for this now) by hobby, and a machine repair man when I need to be. I can do this. I'm sure of it. But I can't for the life of me find the README that'll get me bootstrapped on the toolchain.

    How can I help solve this?
     
  2. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    While your sentiments resonate, the "tribal knowledge" is contained within the forums of this site. Those that have been here a while kind of get a base of knowledge by osmosis just from reading and participating in the various threads.

    Another Prius Chat user asked almost the same question: Has anyone compiled a list of must-know info... I don't know what this thread contains exactly, but sounds interesting and is only 2 pages long.

    There was a thread started not too long ago where a fairly new owner/member ask for opinions on what basic (hardware) tools to get. I haven't been able to track it down as of yet. That would be a fairly good thread to locate and read.

    The search tool built in to the forum is fairly rudimentary and gets mixed results. A better way to search is by using a site search in google. That is site:<nospace>priuschat.com <keyword> or <search term>.

    In terms of "bang for your buck", an MVCI cable is as good as it gets, and, as a diagnostic tool, is all you will need and gives you almost the same capability as the Toyota dealer service dept. There are plenty of them on Amazon/eBay. If you purchase one that was advertised as Mini VCI, then you should get drivers for the cable and a bundled copy of a version of Techstream. But it is not too much of a worry what that version is, as you can download a new version. I'm not sure what "Prime" is, haven't heard of it before, so I hope you are not going to end up with the wrong thing. It actually is a bit of a crap-shoot, but almost all of the MVCI sellers are selling the same deal.

    In terms of the ABC's of setting up the laptop with MVCI/TS, this thread on the TundraTalk forum Techstream ABCs and 123s: Reference point for all new users is pretty useful. You will see on there it is possible to set up in Win 8 64-bit, it is just that it is easier to set up in either Win XP or Win 7 32-bit.

    I hope that as you get to read a bit more on this forum and get to know a few of the contributors that your frustrations will begin to subside.

    In terms of helpful guys, here in the Gen I forum, if you get help from Chap (ChapmanF), Bob Wilson or Patrick Wong, you will be in good hands.

    hope this helps,
    Josh.
     
    #22 dolj, Jun 22, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks! You are right:
    I just reworked the OBD scanner part of the "Ideal Owner" with more technical details about miniVCI, Autoenginuity, and Scangauge II. I did not include the Android version, yet. Too many other demands on my time. But hopefully, it makes more sense now.

    With these cars now 12-14 years old, they are cheap only if you can do your own maintenance . . . and have the time . . . and the patience . . . and scrounge for parts.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Politely ask for help, thank the folks who answer, and give back to the community by helping others.

    Try to remember that you are not paying the people who may give you a hand.
     
  5. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    Absolutely. I don't want to give the impression that I'm ungrateful here. There's 53k of these that were sold in the states, and in the last year I've seen around 7 or 8 in my metro area go up for sale. Most of them with some issues, some without. I actually work at a small company (68 employees) and out of that population, there's two of us with these cars.

    Thanks to all of you for the help.

    The prime thing, meaning amazon prime, which just means you don't pay shipping if you're a prime subscriber, and they fulfill the orders at the amazon DCs.


    So I spent some time poking around under the hood yesterday (still haven't put any miles on the thing -- I'm afraid to drive it anywhere for risk of hurting it more until I get the DTC codes) and notices there's _no_ disturbance / turbulence in the inverter coolant reservoir even after the engine gets warmed up and starts the idle cut-off thing. I'm going to wait to pull the DTC codes, but I figured I'd ask here first -- would a failed inverter coolant pump cause this type of response in the dash lights?
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Yes.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    MVCI Cable arrived this afternoon. I'm sitting in the car as I type this up.

    DTC codes present...

    Hybrid Control: (Current & Historical)
    P3000-123

    HV Battery: (Current & Historical)
    P3009 (see screenshots attached for Freeze Frame & Live Data)

    ABS: (Current)
    C1214

    Other observations worth noting...

    A few weeks ago I made a _fast_ stop, ABS didn't kick in, and the ABS light came on. After about three more ignition cycles and 12 miles on the odometer, this seemed to resolve itself. I've tested it in parking lots and the ABS kicked on.

    There is no turbulence in the inverter coolant reservoir. The pump doesn't feel like it's doing anything to the touch, and occasionally I hear a small 'pop' sound when the engine is running from that corner of the compartment.

    The 3009 was reported a few years back by a prior owner, no action was taken (that I'm aware of). This car has had an ECU and Inverter replaced in the past.

    I'm no expert, but I don't see anything stick out like a sore thumb in the voltage or resistance data on the HV pack itself...



    So where should I start?
     

    Attached Files:

  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Those codes sound like good places to start. Have you looked them up in volume 1 yet?

    -Chap
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The computers gossip about each other. The P3000-123 is just the HV ECU repeating that it has heard of some problem from the battery ECU. The P3009 is the battery ECU detecting a high-voltage leak. You wouldn't see voltage or resistance measurements sticking out, because that's not the kind of problem being reported.

    The leak isn't necessarily in the battery, it could be anywhere in the HV system. You've got about eight pages of advice on how to narrow it down, starting on page DI-331. The prior owner ought to have looked at it. The system is designed so that as long as only one leak develops, the condition isn't very unsafe, and the computer will simply detect it and report P3009. If that's ignored until a second leak also develops, the magic smoke may escape (perhaps vigorously).

    The C1214 seems to implicate one or more pressure sensors in your brake actuator, or the wiring thereto ... a brief workup is on page DI-386.

    These are 2001 page numbers, maybe they move a little bit in your edition.

    -Chap
     
  10. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    The service history from Toyota said they did, but that it was intermittent and couldn't be reproduced. I took it to a dealership right after I bought it, because two days into owning it, the lights came on. They cleared the codes, and the freeze frame data, and left my normal mechanic with nothing to go on.

    I've been growing concerned about the car over the last few weeks, as it seems that this thread 2001 prius brake problem. Pedal goes to floor. | PriusChat largely describes what's been going on with my brakes (pedal to the floor if I push slow). I'm not sure they ever worked right... long story, not worth repeating here.

    I know the vehicle has had brake issues in the past. I think the prior owner did everything he could to avoid fixing things, rather than taking care of them properly. :-/

    I'm concerned the 3009 is the MG2 stator, but I have no real evidence, and no megger...
     
  11. Avi's Advanced Automotive

    Avi's Advanced Automotive Independent hybrid repair shop

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    Next step is to see if the code sets with the key on but the car not ready. With the key in the on position and the car not ready, clear the code and see if it returns. Give it some time to show up, if it does, your problem is probably battery corrosion. If you sit there for 20 minutes, battery charger recommended, and you see nothing, you might have a bad stator.

    Avi
     
  12. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    Avi, thank you for the input. I've read nearly every post from luscious on the HV system over the last nine months. That's always been my biggest fear (and biggest unknown) with this car.

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by 'battery charger recommended'...
     
  13. Avi's Advanced Automotive

    Avi's Advanced Automotive Independent hybrid repair shop

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    Sorry, I recommend you connect a battery charger to the 12V battery while you are performing this test as the cars charging system will not be on and you will drain your battery.
     
  14. Avi's Advanced Automotive

    Avi's Advanced Automotive Independent hybrid repair shop

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    You might try it for five or so minutes and see if you get a code without the battery charger.
     
  15. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    What's the battery charger for? Are you suggesting putting a charger on the aux battery during the test?
     
  16. Avi's Advanced Automotive

    Avi's Advanced Automotive Independent hybrid repair shop

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    Yes, so the battery doesn't go dead.
     
  17. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    Well, that makes a lot more sense. :) Ok, running that test now... All DTC's cleared, Key is 'ON', engine not 'Ready', charger in the trunk.
     
  18. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    30 minutes... no extra lights on the dash...

    Is it bad I was kinda hoping it would be the internal battery corrosion thing?

    Started the engine (engine ready) and within seconds, it lit back up.

    The brake system code is still clear (haven't moved the car), but I'm getting the P3000-123 and the P3009 leak detected code.

    Another note worth asking: Is it possible the P3000-123 is from the coolant pump being shot?
     
    #39 bryanv, Jun 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  19. bryanv

    bryanv New Member

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    It's a different page from what you're quoting in my manual, but it's really close.

    Looks like I'll need a megger to fish this out? *sigh*

    Sounds like this should become a donor vehicle..?