Religion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Denny_A @ Apr 20 2006, 06:54 PM) [snapback]242934[/snapback]</div>

I've got to hand it to you, Denny! One of the best posts I've read in a long time. The Carlin "forward" was perfect... and that right there is why I call them "commercial" religions - above and beyond "organized."

Hell - MY religion is organized. But certianly not commercial. I mean until somebody starts to pay me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 19 2006, 04:24 PM) [snapback]242353[/snapback]</div>

Well your examples really have nothing to do with the “truth†other than there use of the word “truth†to express an opinion or there use in the lingua franca of the language. The farmers’ remark is nothing more than his opinion that rain would be good and the opposite goes for the baseball player. Certainly it wouldn’t be the “truth†if rain came in such quantities that it flooded his crops or if a light sprinkle cooled the hot weather to make play at the field more tolerable. The only truth you talk about here is opinion or the use of the word “truth†in its vernacular sense.


Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 06:59 PM) [snapback]242419[/snapback]</div>

So, let's see. This means that someone who does the born-again thing as a youth, and then joins the neo-Nazis and leads a small group of psychopaths in a spree of rape and murder across the face of the land, will go to heaven, but a child who dies of starvation in Mongolia without ever having heard of Jesus, does not? Interesting theology you have there.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 19 2006, 06:59 PM) [snapback]242419[/snapback]</div>

Every time someone asks Jesus what they must do to be saved, he tells them to sell all their possessions and give the money to the poor. He also tells people (in the Sermon on the Mount) not to hoard wealth, or even to "give any thought for the 'morrow" for god will provide for them as for the lilies of the field.

Less specific, but consistent with the above, he's always telling people not to be concerned with this world, but only with the next. The fundies, in contrast, are completely preoccupied with the things of this world: they insist on property rights, on strong military power, they whine and wail over having to pay taxes, they go ballistic about pornography... but mostly, they insist that everyone should work hard to earn a living, and they insist on the individual's right to become fabulously wealthy.

Jesus, however (I repeat) told people to be as the lilies of the field, that work not, neither do they toil, but their dad-god takes care of them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 21 2006, 10:34 AM) [snapback]243111[/snapback]</div>

Daniel, I don't understand Schmika's theology on this either, and I asked about it he decided to ignore my question. My guess is that he doesn't understand what he is saying either.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 21 2006, 10:34 AM) [snapback]243111[/snapback]</div>

Not quite... There IS punishment, and unless I'm mistaken, if you F up enough, you could STILL go to hell... Well, at least that part of your soul for which the demon resides within... Or something of that sort...

Oh, c'mon daniel, you've been watching too much late night televangelism again! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 21 2006, 10:34 AM) [snapback]243111[/snapback]</div>

Daniel,

Very well said, you have presented the most forgotten virtues of the teachings of Christ. How conveniently neglected by all those who display religious fanaticism. I guess they trying to veil the obvious hypocrisy on their part. These virtues get only a lip service, how so many propitiously slithering to avoid the literal meaning of Jesus' examples.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 21 2006, 10:51 AM) [snapback]243116[/snapback]</div>

Are you responding on Schmika's behalf?
That's not what he said is it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridTHEvibe @ Apr 21 2006, 11:06 AM) [snapback]243121[/snapback]</div>

This morning, as I was driving into work, my MFD suddenly changed to the image of a mouth, and the mouth started talking to me. It kept telling me to kill the infidel hybridhasNOvibe...

 

I think that Mr. E. Squid has forgotten his medication again...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hybridTHEvibe @ Apr 21 2006, 10:46 AM) [snapback]243115[/snapback]</div>

What an ####, hey, unlike some others, I usually only come online once a day. I have yet to ignore you, but I will start since you are impossible to reason with.

Jesus told a very rich man who said he had DONE everything to get into heaven that he would need to sell everything. The rich man refused so Jesus made the point that this person was too in love with material things to go into heaven. You will notice that THAT is the theme he is espousing. He did not go around telling everyone to get rid of everything.

Regrettable, the very issue of being saved forever is what kept me out of salvation for my entire adult life until age 46. I could not accept that a person could be saved, commit crimes, and go to heaven. Then it dawned on me......FORGIVENESSS is not the realm of man, but the realm of GOD. How could I DARE tell GOD what he could or could not forgive. So, I do not worry about that.

There will be some type of Judgement fopr those who are in heaven for their acts upon earth....but that will be up to GOD.

As for as punishment on earth, God does say that man must obey their leaders and follow the laws of man while upon this earth.


That's my answer, and I am sticking with it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 21 2006, 02:07 PM) [snapback]243334[/snapback]</div>

So the followers of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Stalin and their laws are exonerated. Fascists will be so delighted by this news.

 

New member here just jumping in feet first. I was always a super logical person to the point it even annoys my wife sometimes. Growing up catholic when I hit my teenage years I started asking questions that people had no answers to. I vividly remember sitting at Catholic school and having a Nun teaching that non-believers were going to hell. I raised my hand and asked about people in other countries that didn't even know about our religion. She said they were still going to hell. I ended up telling her I thought that wasn't right and made no sense, and got kicked out of class.

I am now 31 and still almost every time I talk to my parents they still try and get on me about going back to church. I just don't understand it I guess. Why should I believe what some book says? It doesn't even make sense in most places. World drowning floods, angels of death, and parting of the sea? Why doesn't this stuff happen now that we have science to look into it? Probably because they are stories told by people that didn't understand something natural in the world around them. I know many great, loving people that are Christian, but it seems to me most of the intolerence in the world comes from the people that are taking religion too serious/literal. Seems to be usually religious people that scream about Abortion being murder, but are all for murdering thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens. My logical mind just cannot overlook some of this stuff.

The recent breakdowns of the wall between church and state really bothers me, as does the thinly veiled attempt to put Christianity in the classroom with the "Intelligent Design" crap.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Apr 21 2006, 02:07 AM) [snapback]243055[/snapback]</div>

That's more or less the point. Close enough to one of them anyway. "Truth" is never much more than someone's opinion.

So when you claim that so and so is "The Truth" you are merely expressing an opinion.

Per my closing pararaph, are you wise enough to recognize that an opinion can change as new knowledge is obtained? Or are you locked into your opinon of the moment, closed off to new information, new insights, fresh thinking?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Apr 21 2006, 02:07 PM) [snapback]243334[/snapback]</div>

Thus those who followed Hitler and gassed all those Jews in compliance with German law authorized by the German legislature were fully in compliance with "god's" will.

And Martin Luther King, committing countless misdemeanors and felonies against state segregation laws authorized by state legislatures was contemptuously disobedient to "god's" will.

While I can't quote them (not having a bible ready at hand), there are numerous verses set down as "god's" spoken word which command men to commit unspeakable acts of violence against innocent people and children for absurdly trivial "offenses" committed by others.

Personally, I think the world could do with a great deal MORE disobedience to "god's" will, as it often elevates us out of the muck of ignorant savagery.

Incidentally, by what authority do the most of the civilized devout (thankfully) choose NOT to abide by some of the more vile precepts in the bible? Always wondered about that. Is there some other book they keep quiet about that says which chapters to embrace and which to disgrace? Or do they recognize within themselves, WITHOUT "god's" help, that "god" got it wrong here and there in that ancient pack of fables?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Deaden @ Apr 21 2006, 05:34 PM) [snapback]243349[/snapback]</div>

I remember the nun pulling me by my ear out of the pew.
When I was 16 I saw the hurt look in my fathers face when I told him I didn't believe anymore
I questioned everything as you do.
When I was 28 I lay in bed after late night drinkind I could hear the Church bells ringing and I could feel the Lord gently tugging at my heart.
Within 6 months I was a born again believer. And I started to understand some of the Bible.
And the evolution that they filled my head with in school seemed to fad away as the Holy Spirit gave me
wisdom.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 21 2006, 09:03 PM) [snapback]243422[/snapback]</div>

Words have meaning. They are not arbitrary. "Truth" is the recognition of reality! I.e., there is reality independent of man, and there are certain conceptual products (formulations) by human consciousness. When one of these products corrresponds to reality, as in it constitutes a recognition of fact, then it is true. When the mental content constitutes a contradiction of reality, then it is false.

Truth is NOT an opinion. It is a fact. Reality is the judge and jury!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Apr 21 2006, 08:26 PM) [snapback]243434[/snapback]</div>

Romans 9

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.†16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.†18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(marjflowers @ Apr 21 2006, 07:32 PM) [snapback]243480[/snapback]</div>

Exactly. There are many great novels, but nobody in his right mind insists that they are the "literal word of god." We read them and enjoy them for their literary quality, for the fun stories, and for the moral lessons they convey. We don't insist that their characters are real people, or attempt to dispute well-established scientific understanding by arguing over the words spoken by a fictional character in a novel.

The Bible is a diverse collection of ancient myths and poems, containing some beautiful language, some exciting stories, some moral precepts, and even some pornography. We can read it and enjoy it and regard it as a great anthology.

The problem comes when people start saying that god says this or god says that because it's in the Bible, or when people use the Bible as an excuse to make wars or deny people their fundamental human and civil rights. It's a book, folks. It's demonstrably wrong in numerous factual points. But it also contains a lot of wisdom. Learn from it, but don't use it to beat other people over the head.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Apr 22 2006, 09:56 AM) [snapback]243601[/snapback]</div>

Please tell me why you do not believe that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses are anyone else in the Bible are real people? All the prophets and New Testament writers indicate that they were real people.