Transcript of the final moments of Flight 93....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Apr 25 2006, 05:10 PM) [snapback]245075[/snapback]</div>

Care to define the demographic, or should we assume anyone who doesn't follow your brilliant logic?

Squidly, you're loosing it badly.

 

I have a somewhat different perspective on 9/11...

That summer we hired some college interns to do some quick programming work. One of them was a Muslim. Every once in a while he would excuse himself while he said his prayers. We knew about it; he was open about it, so everything was ok. Until 9/11.

He was at work, and we were watching the images on the computer screens and listening to the radio feeds. All he could say was 'This is not Islam!' He was quite shaken. We never noticed him take a break for prayers again.

I will see the movie, and in my opinion, it has been too long in coming.

 

I got a really entertaining piece of spam the other day ... a sort
of broadcast-blast to "ALL MUSLIMS" to the effect that islam *is*
supposed to be about peace and a few bad apples are [as usual]
ruining everything. From some random Yahoo account. Since I
completely agreed with what it was saying I replied, and found that
there's a human behind the address who's really trying to spread a
message of peace in a fairly heartfelt way even though it might be
landing in a lot of non-muslim mailboxes. I'm a fairly rabid
anti-spam sort, but I didn't even think for a moment about this
particular unsolicited message in that context. Makes me wonder how
many nastygrams landed in abuse@yahoo's mailbox from other people,
though, complaining about "git this raghead outa mah inbawx" or
whatever. *sigh*
.
_H*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Apr 25 2006, 03:34 PM) [snapback]245038[/snapback]</div>

So to be clear, you should say you are tired of burying innocent "American" civilians. Because over 30,000 Iraqis have died in this so far, and this is in a country that did not have anything to do with 9/11. That is ok though, right?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Deaden @ Apr 25 2006, 11:22 PM) [snapback]245305[/snapback]</div>

No problem.

And as you are reading translated materials captured from iraq you can not still possibly believe iraq operated in a terror vacuum.

How many were killed by there own people? How many died because they were used as shields to protect the idiots who refuse to fight like men?

Fewer have died since we have invaded than saddam would have killed himself over the same time period.

How about their new government? Their free presses printing over 100 periodicals? How about internet access for several hundred thousand of them? What about women being treated like human beings instead of cattle? Can you recognize any good we have done?

How many millions died under Stalin? Under Hitler?

Yes innocent people have died. But I believe we are a force for good and not evil there. That there deaths will be remembered and that they have a brighter future today than they did under saddam.

And as a default - I do value American lives more than others. Forgive me for being so foolish.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dsunman @ Apr 25 2006, 07:28 PM) [snapback]245160[/snapback]</div>

A great Democratic President did just that in war time if you can recall.

And yes we should be using racial profiling - I get annoyed seeing 85 year old nuns being strip searched in airports.

Seems to me the only people blowing up or beheading innocent civilians are Muslim at this point.

Or we can just bury our head in the sand like we did under clinton - then they can bury the rest of our bodies later.

 

I'll have to see the movie, but I will be going alone. My wife will not see it.

She was home alone while I was in the air on 9/11. I was blissfully ignorant of the events unfolding as the captain announced we had to make an unscheduled landing in Las Vegas. On our landing, I thought it was strange that so many planes were landing there ... sure, it was early in the morning, but I could see that there weren't enough gates to hold the planes. We finally pulled up to a gate, and the captain announced that an act of terrorism had been committed against the US involving United Airlines.

Then the cell phones started ringing, and we learned bits and pieces. I had three voice mails; one from one of my employees, and she was crying. Another from an employee who had flown into Logan Airport the night before, and he sounded very concerned. And then from my wife. I called her and she filled me in on the events as they were unfolding. The TVs were shut off in the terminals, so it wasn't until I was home, after 5 pm, that I saw the first pictures.

I have heard reviews by both liberals (Ebert) and conservatives (Medved) and they both praised the movie. I will have to see it, but I will have to see it alone.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 25 2006, 04:49 PM) [snapback]245049[/snapback]</div>

My good doctor,
I think it would be a lot easier if the "good" muslims would stand up and rid themselves of their bad apples who seem to go around killing, murdering, beheading innocent people in the name of their god. If they can not get rid of their own problem makers we will have to - and we will obviously make more errors than they will - but as the default that has to be accepted as tolerble.

and we do know who a lot of them are - they are in gitmo wearing orange - you know, the guys we are giving habeus corpus rights to.

blanket hatred is no good - so is a religions unwillingness to police itself. their silence as their brothers in religion commit MURDER in their religions name is DEAFENING and I am sure it upsets you as much as it does me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Apr 25 2006, 10:48 PM) [snapback]245320[/snapback]</div>

So I'm assuming you get quite upset about Pro-Lifers that bomb abortion clinics, and the lack of widespread condemnation from Christians afterward?

If not, shut up already, your logic base is whacked.

I live near where a whacko was damned-near celebrated for killing innocents, and it sickens me that he wasn't strung up immediately after. It took way, way too long to get rid of that terrorist here in the good-ole USofA.

 

After reading this entire thread, it's interesting to see how we can have two completely different view points on this. I would venture to think that some of the "kill all of them before they kill us" people are the same ones who want to shoot Mexicans at the border to 'protect' the US.

It's discouraging to read how some people on this thread are so intolerant. You're no different than the Jihadists. They want to kill us, you want to kill them.

Here's a thought...find out what they want so we can end this madness. As an active duty member in the military, it sickens me to see the casuality toll increase each day.

I will not go see the move. I saw it the first time on 11 Sep 2001.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eyeguy13 @ Apr 26 2006, 08:41 AM) [snapback]245421[/snapback]</div>

ANS: Where were you on 911? How did you feel then and how do you feel now? As an active member (what service and where?) of the military I am sure you felt the same visceral pain I did - did you also have that reflex rage??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 26 2006, 08:44 AM) [snapback]245425[/snapback]</div>

 

Don't get me wrong ~ like Evan I support the war on terror, but not necessarily the means.

-The beliefs of Muslims are very complex ~ I heard one friend say that they have more sects than Christianity.

-Let's not go too far in our thinking... Hitler also used pre-emptive thinking against the Jews.

If some of the posters in this thread had power and let their anger overcome their logic (IE if you had all the power in the world during that moment), you would have the killing of 6-11 millions Muslims in the modern day (as 6 million Jews, and 5 million others in the past in just the Holocaust alone).

How would you feel if you were persecuted, or suspected of, a crime you had nothing to do with? Can you put yourself in those shoes as well?

Some innocents are bound to get harmed in any war... but we need to gain a grip on our anger over the attack... I don't think we should blanket target a group and repeat history.


------
"Hitler began to claim the Jews were natural enemies of what he called the Aryan race. He held them responsible for Austria's crisis. He also identified Socialism and especially Bolshevism, which had some Jews among its leaders, as Jewish movements, merging his anti-Semitism with anti-Marxism. Blaming Germany's military defeat on the revolution, he considered Jews the culprit of Germany's military defeat and subsequent economic problems as well."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler
------
Please, let's not go beyond targetting the terrorists themselves.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Apr 26 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]245586[/snapback]</div>

1. no u r not; tough to claim moral superiority if your dead.
2. yada yada
3. u use selective statistics only if they support your beliefs?
4. What rank were u when u retired? 5 years since last terrror attack on US soil - not bad.

sorry about the quote stuff b4 - my bad
can we still b friends?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Apr 26 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]245448[/snapback]</div>

On 11 Sep 01, I was on active duty. I still am. I'm an officer in the US Air Force with almost 18 years of service. I was stationed in Germany during the fall of the Soviet Union, in Europe during Gulf War One, in Japan during the 90's and still in during Gulf War Two.

You know, as does everyone else now, that Iraq and Saddam Hussein had NOTHING to do with the WTC and the pentagon plane attack. I always hated the Taliban for being a repressive regime. President Bush did the right thing after 11 Sep 01 and invaded Afghanistan to take down the Taliban. Good move. The world supported it. We should be there only to find Bin Laden. Iraq was being dealt with diplomatically at the time and that should have continued.

After 11 Sep 01, many of the people I worked with had 'reflex rage' and wanted to 'nuke' Iraq and kill all the Muslims. Wrong! 99% of the Muslim world is peace loving and want to live in peace. The one common thread among the Europeans and Japanese is that they are like us. They want to have families, go to work each day, relax on weekends, and enjoy life. The Muslim world is no different.

It's the Fundamentalists we should fear-the ones in the Middle East and the ones right here in our own country (ie-the religious right and the neo-cons)

And please, stop bringing up the Clinton/Blow Job issue. He lied about getting a blow job. What man wouldn't do that. That was not an issue of national security.

We'll just NEVER see eye to eye on this topic.

I'm still not going to see the movie about Flight 93.

 

Our entry into Afghanistan and Iraq reminds me of the story of the tar baby - anybody remember their Uncle Remus stories?

 

I was also in the military (four years as an active duty Navy officer, ten years in the reserves.)
Funny how those of us who have served in the military think twice about wanton use of US military power, but many of those who have never served are quick to send other people's kids to die in an unjust, unconstitutional and completely unneccessary war- or stand by on the sidelines, exhorting us to go around the world kicking butt, and questioning the patriotism of anyone who speaks in opposition.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(unruhly @ Apr 25 2006, 11:12 AM) [snapback]244941[/snapback]</div>

To take your second point first: I agree 100% that nobody who kills innocents can claim to be godly (or, I would say "a decent human being.") In the category of "people who kill innocents" I include terrorists, and I include soldiers who drop bombs from planes on peoples' houses, and the generals who order them to, and the commander-in-chief who approves the dropping of bombs on houses.

Saying they 'try to minimize" civilian "casualties" is not good enough. You drop bombs on houses, knowing there are innocents in some of those houses, you are no different than any other kind of terrorist. War is, in the final analysis, terrorism conducted by recognized governments.

To take your first point: In what way does viewing a fictionalized account of a tragedy or an act of terrorism help anybody to understand the real nature of that act? On the contrary, Hollywood loves to sensationalize and play on your emotions. We (some of us) cry when we watch a movie that is 100% fiction because it has pulled on our emotions. But when the fictionalized movie has some (however slight) basis in reality, then that artificial twisting of emotions is likely to adversely affect our judgement when deciding how to deal with the event.

In this case, I have not seen the movie, but it would be a real tragedy if it got up someone's emotions to the point that he went out and killed or beat up an innocent person who just happens to be a Moslem. (And who may very well have been working within the Moslem community to discredit the extremists.)

Chances are I won't see the movie.