Migra migra

Evan, my take on this:

--We have laws that regulate immigration.

Laws made by wealthy white men to placate xenophobic voters.

--Those who have come here have done so illegally, they have no rights as US Citizens b/c of their illegal status and it ticks me off that they have the audacity to file suit in our courts to gain rights.

There are international laws, moral "laws," and U.S. laws that guarantee certain rights to everybody. There are relatively few rights that are reserved solely for citizens. Basic human rights apply to everyone, everywhere, and governments that violate them are regarded as criminal.

--It pisses me off that they pay no taxes and yet their children can attend the schools we pay for.

This is a common misperception. Undocumented workers have payroll taxes deducted from their wages, but they cannot apply for refunds, so they often pay more income tax than citizens. If they rent housing, the property tax is part of their rent, and it is mostly property tax that funds schools, so they are in fact paying for their schooling. Anyone who hires a worker more than some number of hours per week is required to deduct payroll taxes. If they do not, it is the employer who is breaking the law. And some number of citizens also work "off the books." This is not an immigrant problem.

It pisses me off that they can utilize the health care system, but for the most part only use the ERs and hospitals..the most expensive parts of the health care system b/c they can't afford to see primary care doctors before their illness or injury becomes so severe that they have to access the health care system.

A lot of poor people use only the ER, because they cannot afford basic care. This is a problem with our system that fails to guarantee primary care for everyone. It is not an immigrant problem.

--It worries me that the number of immigrants now working for low wages, once recognized as 'potential citizens' will have their jobs "legitimized" which will lead to the need to pay SSI, taxes, and all the other issues that employers must pay. They'll insist on higher wages and we'll be back exactly where were were before the massive immigration movement. How long will these folks be satisfied with low wages doing manual labor? They'll take it today b/c it offers better opportunity than they currently have in Mexico. But how long will that last? 5 years?
--The "Want to do jobs that Americans won't do" arguement seems extremely short sighted b/c of my previous statement. Granting of a 'road to citizenship' seems like creating a road back to where we stand now.

Immigration to the US has been the history of desperate, hard-working people coming here to make a life for themselves, working for almost nothing, and working their way up. Mexicans are no different. Each of these groups in turn has become an integral part of our nation, and each group in turn has made our nation stronger. From my experience of Mexicans (living 4 1/2 years in Mexico) I believe they will be no different.

On the Other hand:
--We are a country of immigrants, it's our roots. Almost every one of us can trace our ancestry to someone who was seeking freedom from repression, greater opportunity, higher wages, etc. It seems darn snobbish to now turn away others seeking the same opportunity our ancestors did.

I agree.

--If I were a Mexican citizen with terrible wages, my kids not getting opportunity to learn and grow, needing health care and the opportunity to have access all those things just a few hundred yards away I absolutely would do it. No question, no hesitation.

Yep.

--Any effort to immediately remove all the illegals from the country would, without a doubt, lead to a complete collapse of many US industries...they've become an essential part of our lives whether we know it or like it or not.

Absolutely essential.

--Even if we were able to fill their positions it would lead to dramatic increases in cost and wages.

Yep.

--Legalizing them will allow them to contribute to their own health care, school, etc. It will provide opportunities for them to contribute to retirement. Instead of being 'free loaders' they'll be contributors.

As noted above, they are contributing now, often more than citizens earning the same amount. They are not freeloaders in any sense. But yes, legalizing them will level the playing field.

--We can better track those who are legally and illegally entering the country, our border patrol can focus on issues like terrorism and drug trafficing and probably save us all money.

I'm skeptical of the boarder patrol's ability to track anyone, documented or undocumented.

I'm sure there are other good arguements for and against. I'm also sure that we'll end up with some sort of compromise plan...much as I hate to say it I think that Bush's proposal is probably the most reasonable compromise I've heard (if there are others that folks here know of I'd love to hear them). It's clear, to me anyway, that there is no easy solution, but it's also clear that we must start working toward some sort of resolution so that the laws are clear, the consequences for both the immigrants and those who hire them illegally are clear. We need both a deterant to further illegal immigration and a route to allow some illegals to gain a legal status...be it as citizens or whatever.

I have a relatively straightforward proposal to end illegal immigration, but it's politically impossible, because too many large corporations have a vested interest in undocumented labor:

We only need two laws, and we need to enforce them vigorously:

1. Raise the minimum wage to a level where people can actually live on it, so that citizens would be willing to do the jobs that undocumented workers do now. At the present minimum wage a family cannot simultaneously put a roof over its head and food on the table. And there's no way they can afford health insurance! When a working poor person goes to the ER, your taxes and mine are subsidizing their employer, who is too greedy to pay enough for them to buy insurance.

Yes, this would increase the cost of everything. But is it "moral" to demand that one group of people work for wages so low that they are either homeless or hungry, and have no health care? Just to hold down the cost of goods and services? Is it "christian" to keep people in poverty just so hotels and clothing will be cheap enough that the middle class can buy and gas up SUVs? Our present leaders call themselves christian, but they feel that it's more important to hold prices down than to allow the working poor a decent life.

2. Make it a felony, with a mandatory prison sentence, for anyone to pay any worker less than the minimum wage.

Once employers have to pay a living wage, and they have a pool of citizens to do the work, they'll have no incentive to hire undocumented workers.

A third proposal, which would help a great deal (and would answer the complaint that jobs would go overseas if the minimum wage were raised) is to ban the importation of any product produced with labor paid less than our minimum wage, adjusted for actual buying power in the exporting country. If countries that wanted to export to us had to pay a living wage, their own citizens would have less incentive to come here. Of course, this proposal is politically impossible because companies like Walmart, who import the produce of slave-labor and near-slave labor, would raise a stink. Still, it would go a long way towards addressing the issue of undocumented immigration.

 

Living in Los Angeles and having to deal with this issue on a daily basis--even more so today--I feel that my 2 pesos could be useful.

First off...I'm Caucasian...not white--paper is white, milk is white. To me that term is getting to be as offensive as any other ethnic slur or generalization. Secondly, I'm in the middle class--yes, the ones that seem to get most of crap the government throws out.

That being said...I support diversity in our nation, I really do. This country wouldn't be half as great without the contributions of every race that inhabits this country. On the other hand, I support it when it's LEGAL. What people on one side of this issue seem to forget is that people that enter this country ILLEGALLY are BREAKING THE LAW. I remember reading on another site that, when a question was asked about who are the people that enter the country legally and follow the law on the path to citizenship, the answer was...the STUPID ones. Why? Because if you're dumb enough to pay out all of the money and give out all the time that is needed to become a legal citizen--you're dumb for doing it when it's so much easier to sneak in a break the law.

While I agree with the basic thread of today's boycott--to REFORM immigration--I disagree that we should just let every illegal that's here now stay with no consequences. I know of people that have lost family members because of violence/auto accidents from illegals that fled across the border to avoid capture. How convienient! C'mon over when it suits you and then run like hell back to your home country to stay out of trouble.

I don't have an answer on how to fix this...deport them all...build a "great wall" of some sort...all kinds of things have been thrown around. BUT letting them stay will only send a clear message back home that everyone in the family is now welcome. I think it would make more sense to make Mexico the 51st state.

To touch on a couple of points that were mentioned here...taxes. Sure payroll taxes are taken out of some illegals paychecks. Of course that would have to mean that they have fake documentation of some sort. Those that don't have that are being paid under the table by despicable employers that should be put in jail in the first place for hiring illegals. Another part of that is this...go stand in line during a busy stretch in a L.A. post office. You'll see people lining up to buy money orders to send money home to Mexico. So even our enconomy is not being helped by this income even if the taxes aren't being paid.

Another point...language. I think it's an insult that people want to not only sing the National Anthem in Spanish, but change the words as well! Are you kidding me!?! Why not just change it to Mexican anthem? Also, having everything in Spanish is a bit much...driving in some areas the signs are in nothing but Spanish. Whatever happened to signs in both languages? And it's not just Spanish...Armenians, Turks, Persians...it like we're not supposed to be able to read the signs--for all I know it could read "death to America" (j/k). The last time I checked, you had to be proficient in English to become an American citizen. I suppose that's too much work along with doing the paperwork and paying the fees.

L.A.'s mayor Antonio Villarigosa asked the community that the American flag be displayed during the boycott today since we're all Americans...when I watched the news this morning the majority of flags that I saw were Mexican. Hey, you want to support Mexico so much...go there.

 

"I think it would make more sense to make Mexico the 51st state."

Alternatively, Mexico could make the United States its 32 state.

 

Illegal immigration is just a form of globalization. Free trade is supposed to be good. Free trade refers to the free flow of products and services and immigration is the people part. This issue is riddled with semantics. How about changing the term to "insourcing"? Anyway it can't be stopped, maybe slowed a bit at great taxpayer cost, so why bother. It is obvious that this is an issue the GOP stirred up because they thought it would help them in the November elections; time will tell.

 

My wife is an immigrant. Not from Mexico, from the Philippines. I have no problem with migration, as long as it is done legally.

 

I am an immigrant as are most people I know. Canadian taxpayers spent a great deal of money educating me to the level of 2 masters degrees and I repaid them by going to the US. Where does the US lose in this?

 

As usual, the mainstream media only presents the standard stereotypes - immigrants are illegal, uneducated and from Mexico or some poor country. In fact, the US benefits enormously from the hundreds of thousands of highly educated people from China, India, and all over the world who have come here for greater opportunities. I really believe that without these scientists, engineers and researchers from the rest of the world, the US would have great difficulty in maintaining a lead in technology. Native born Americans tend to avoid hard sciences and gravitate to things like law and marketing. I know at least 15 immigrants to the US who have PH.D's in computer science, engineering, biotechnology, etc. Their home countries paid for their educations, not the US taxpayer. This amounts to a tremendous subsidy to the US economy. Even the millions of uneducated and low-skilled immigrants (legal or illegal) contribute vastly more to the economy than they take - and this is regardless of the fact that they may be in violation of immigration laws. Corporations know this perfectly well, which is why there has been no real crackdown on illegal immigration. Without immigrants, the US would face a future like Japan - slowly aging, shrinking, dying. Let them in and welcome them - that is the true "American" way, and frankly, what I, as a Canadian admire about the US.

 

The "illegal" immigration "issue" has always grated with me because virtually every argument I've seen advanced has racism at its roots. Evan Fusco is "pissed off" because he doesn't like seing some faction of humanity getting "undeserved" benefits. Regradless of whether this perception is accurate or not, factions of humanity being dealt poor and good hands defines every sphere of human existence - to single out immigration as an area of imbalance needing special attention seems to me more motivated by racism than by any pragmatic concern.

Here are two challenges to the anti-"illegal" immigration side:

1. Produce scientific control studies that demonstrate, with facts, the detriments AND benefits that accrue proportional to immigrant influx. Me belief is that aren't ANY studies of this kind, but if there are, my further belief is that they will show that benefits that FAR outweigh detriments, and benefits and detriments are not limited to simply economic factors - there are social factors, aesthetic factors, quality of life factors, etc. etc.

2. For you personally, as an idividual, cite a SINGLE example of you yourself being affected adversely by "illegal" immigration, not in some amophous (bogus) sense of excess tax burden, but something you suffered directly. And don't tell me your CD player got ripped off - you could have suffered that loss by anyone. I don't think this 2nd challenge can be answered honestly in the affirmative.

To make what side of a river someone was born on as a basis for apportioning out benefits and privileges accorded one faction of humanity and denying them to others is, at its root, racist.

Were immigration TRULY a concern, in and of itself, we would monitor intra-national immigration just as closely as we do international immigration. But nobody pays the slightest attention to how many newcomers to California came from Chicago, or Atlanta, or Mississippi. And don't pipe up with "that's negligible." How the hell would you know? You wouldn't know whether it's a large number or a small number. MOST IMPORTANT, you wouldn't have any idea WHERE the proportion of influx shifts from negligible to significant. Where're the studies (see challenge 1) that lay it out?

Is population growth and density an issue? Yes. But here's the crucial question: At what density per sq. mile do the detriments begin to overtake the benefits? And, by the way, if this issue were honestly regarded it would take into account birthrates as well as immigration rates, and it NOT limit its view of immigration to just those who happen to come from outside the country.

I doubt very much, incidentally, that ANY community on the planet has attained a level of human population density so high that the detriments have overtaken the benefits. Because, if that ever happens, people would begin LEAVING at an accelerating rate until conditions became pleasant enough to stay.

Most of us living in high density population centers couldn't tolerate life elsewhere - we'd lose too many amenities; we couldn't keep the jobs we have, etc. etc. At the individual's level it's a matter of personal taste, of course - you or I would leave sooner or later than the other, but overall most of us in high density areas are there because we've chosen it.

Finally, the "illegality" label heaped on this issue REALLY grates. When it comes to social movements/concerns, what's "legal" is usually found to be an impediment to getting to where we should be. I'm GLAD Martin Luther King violated the law for example - laws CHANGED to reflect the new, improved social construct.

As far as immigration is concerned, to my eye there aren't ENOUGH laws enforcing basic human decency: paying living wages, providing decent working conditions, compelling education, etc. That institutions are able to violate these norms of decency because they're exploiting "illegal" labor seems to me the REAL obscenity, not that people desperate enough to take real risks to better their lives are doing so without benefit of the right scrap of paper.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

How is it racist to expect the US to uphold the laws on the books and keep illegals out?

 

The USA welcomes 1.25 million LEGAL immigrants every year. Approximately what percent of that 1.25 million would be prevented from entering the USA if a barrier (fence, wall, electronic monitoring, patrols, etc) were to be erected at the US/Mexico border?
Yes, the correct answer is . . . "approximately ZERO"!

With calls for immigration reform, “Immigrants†can not logically be spoke of as a single entity.

And why is there another call for amnesty? Immigrants who are here LEGALLY don't need amnesty. :angry:

Amnesty was granted back in 1986. Did it prevent the same problems from happening today?
NO.

Why? Because there was no enforcement of the immigration laws, labor laws, and border security laws which are currently on the books.

More than 40 percent of Mexican adults say they would move to the U.S. if they could, and 1 in 5 say they would do so illegally if necessary, according to surveys released yesterday by the Pew Hispanic Center.
More than half of Mexicans say they would be inclined to come if the U.S. established a temporary worker program.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/news/national...5b1_mexicanpoll


Countries Ranked by Population: 2005
#3 United States 295,734,134
#11 Mexico 106,202,903
http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/idbrank.pl

If the 20% of Mexicans who said they would illegally enter the USA did so, that would be an extra 21,240,000 people on top of the approximately 12,000,000 already here illegally . . . and the new “immigrant†numbers are just those from Mexico.

No immigration reform will be successful without border security and labor law enforcement.
Amnesty for all will do nothing except encourage the next wave of illegal immigration.

 

You cannot fight emotion with logic. The pro-amnesty side is full of emotion with some logical points. The "put up a wall" side is full of logic with some emotion. That is my vision of it.

Laws/rules/guidelines are usually written during times of calm and with logical thought. Sometimes misguided, but with good intentions (modern laws...not the stuff back in Jim Crow days). Problem is, when it comes time to enforce them...out come the "feelings" people.

Part of our problem is that we are more a democracy than a repbublic, and our reps and leaders won't do what they are supposed to...LEAD! Once you start trying to pelase everyone...you please no one.

 

They shouldn't break US law because "they" want to have a better life. If people want to come to US, they should do it legally. If they feel the US immigration law is unfair, TOOOOO BAD!!!! LIFE AIN'T FAIR!!! (That's one of first few things I've learned after I came to US.)

There are millions of people who are trying to come to US legally. They are following US law by waiting in line for ages. Take a look of current visa bulletin:
http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin...letin_2868.html

siblings of a US citizen(F4) have been waiting for decades to have a chance to come to US, why should the illegal immigrants get free ride and become citizens faster than those people who obey the law?

I'm glad to see the TV stations are helping US CIS by recording people's faces across the nation today. Should be easier to catch the illegals now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ May 1 2006, 09:38 AM) [snapback]247988[/snapback]</div>

There is a large underground economy; people who work for cash and pay no taxes. This is not an immigration question, it is a tax-enforcement question. Some immigrants work in the underground economy, others have payroll taxes deducted but cannot file for refunds. Note that "legalizing" immigration would encourage people to join the mainstream economy.

We already have a "forced" minimum wage. But it's not enough to live on. Period. Health care is part of the cost of living. It is immoral to expect someone to work for you, full time, for less than the cost of living.

On the befits/costs ledger, the US has extracted an unimaginable amount of wealth from Mexico and other parts of Latin America. Some of it "legally" by bribing foreign legislators or coercing them through threats of violence to pass laws favorable to us. Some of it illegally by just going there and taking it. If we were to pay back with interest the wealth we've stolen from underdeveloped nations, we'd wipe out their foreign debts and they'd have enough money to build infrastructure and raise their standard of living considerably, maybe even to our level. You simply cannot ignore the past. Mexicans are poor for many reasons, some of theose are their own fault. But one of the reasons is the amount of wealth we've stolen from them. Immigration is the price we pay for having kept our neighbor poor.

In the end, the human race is one people. If you believe in god, we are all the children of the same god. If you believe in evolution we are all cousins. If you believe in Jesus we have an obligation to share what we have. Does our obscene wealth improve our quality of life? In the long run, bridges make us more secure than walls, because a wall will be knocked down sooner or later, while a bridge forges friendship. A wall will keep your enemy out for a while. But a friend will stand by you in your time of need.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BellBoy @ May 1 2006, 10:19 AM) [snapback]248011[/snapback]</div>

Sorry BellBoy. Consult any immigration lawyer. (I did volunteer work in a legal aid office. Much of their work was immigration law. My work was mostly translating documents from Spanish to English for immigration applications, as well as some letters, and some interpreting.)

Entering the US without permission is not against the law. You can be deported for it, and you can be "detained" pending hearings or deportation. But you cannot be sentenced to jail or prison for it. The undocumented people so often refered to as "illegals" have not broken any law by coming here without permission.

Again, consult any immigration lawyer.

 

so what are you seeking ? a utopia?!

well this is how it happens from the vey beginning , opression and a run away ..

btw, since when was bosh quoted for good?! , let somone tell him about little Ed. kicking a bucket in a whole new merry land ..for the sake of cheap petrol..where human souls end to be the cheapest..



...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ May 2 2006, 07:59 AM) [snapback]248538[/snapback]</div>

Daniel...using semantics doesn't change the fact that it IS AGAINST THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY to remain here undocumented. Period, end of story. You can consult all of the lawyers you want...they're a dime a dozen and they'll say whatever gets them paid.

If I skip across the border without a passport...sure, I'll grant you that I would be deported and it's pretty much "no harm, no foul". BUT...I sneak across the border, evade capture, obtain false identification/work papers/etc.--THAT is breaking the law. Find me someone that has been living/working here for years that hasn't obtained the proper LEGAL documentation and I'll show you a CRIMINAL.