Here comes E15

I don't think we have Prius data on ethanol impacts, but I previously posted an old EPA discussion of MPG test math techniques. Apparently is customary according to SAE historical techniques adopted by EPA to measure both MPG and energy content of test fuels. The observed MPG raw test readings are normally adjusted based on the fuel energy content. So this is the common 3% adjustment factor we hear about for E10, based on 3% less energy content. In other words, nobody seems to question the historic SAE approximation.

Many of us have to use "EPA Reformulated Gasoline" which is an E10 formula. So unless EPA changes the RFG recipe, I don't think we will see E15 in our areas.

 

so is it 3% cheaper than E0?

 

Is it 3% cheaper to make?
That all depends on the market cost of wholesale ethanol vs. wholesale gasoline.

Is it 3% cheaper to buy?
Usually way less. E10 is cheaper because E0 has become a scarce specialty product to purchase. Gaso producers are required to put 10.1% ethanol in their gasoline now, or pay fees, so E0 is penalized at the pump.

 

so it's not a bad deal for the consumer. or it is. more complicated than climate change.

 

We were just joking about that earlier tonite, good deal for consumer?
No way, Jim Beam corn whiskey is more expensive now. We theorized instead of arguing corn/food is more expensive, we should say beer and whiskey are more expensive due to ethanol mandate ...that would be better political argument.

I was asking my friend who has vintage cars if he uses E10. He said yes he has no choice E0 is not available for a hundred miles. He has like 1965 Corvette stuff like that.

 

I hate to disagree, but corn prices have risen due to ethanol. Our food industry relies on corn. It is broken down into multiple products including corn syrup, and ethanol is in direct competition with that. There are many organic options, like switch grass, which has NO impact on food prices, and can be used to make ethanol. It would also have a slightly higher energy punch, better than corn. The lobbyists won this one, as usual, and you guys that support it are drinking the government koolaid. Cheers!

 

I want organic E85, none of this genetically modified non organic stuff.
And I want it to come in PINK

 

We often have good reason to distrust the government. They don't think things through (i.e. "we have to pass the law so we can find out what's in it"), and their motives are not always altruistic, to say the least. Until they have my interests in mind, and represent me, I don't follow them blindly. It's called democracy. But I'll wait to see on this issue, if it screws up anyone's 2012 Prii.

 

Having been raised in the corn fields of Indiana, I respectfully disagree with the "no impact on food production". Farmers raise what makes the most money for them. Sure you can raise a crop not used for food...but that is accomplished by not planting a food crop such as soybeans.

 

there is the benefit of reduced foreign oil? i think that was one of the original objectives.

 

Ethanol came in under Clean Air Act to make gasoline burn cleaner.

Surprisingly, however, it started to become clear (large Auto/Oil/Gov R&D program) that ethanol did NOT make gasoline burn cleaner (in cars with catalytic converters). That's when Congress issued an edict that Congress "believes" ethanol is needed to make gasoline burn cleaner and pushed through a mandate. This was a very controversial "bad science" decision for Congress, but the winning argument basically is: if it's bad for the oil industry, it must be good for America. This logic prevails today.

In later years Congress stopped saying ethanol is needed for environmental reasons, and changed the rationale to national security and to stop oil imports, help the farmers, etc.

 

Possible, but that's a big reason E0 is often available in most any area. The number of farm and garden implements that have issues with E10 make the demand ever-present...never mind the people who simply won't use anything but E0 in their cars.

THIS. Even if the corn used to make ethanol isn't the kind we'd eat, it is using land that is better used for producing food for humans. IIRC, other options like switch grass will grow in lots of places...especially places not fit for corn production. It could be cultivated from land that has no other useful purpose for human food production.

I heard a similar bit of nonsense from some "greenie" about how using land for ranching was a waste compared to growing food on it. What that person didn't understand is that much of the land used for "ranching" will grow enough grass to feed cattle, but it would not support agriculture. So, it's not a waste to use the land for ranching.

 

Is that so? Well you contradict yourself with the next sentence.

I make Chocolate Pecan Pies. Main ingredient... CORN SYRUP. So much for your "not edible" crap. It's also used in many foods.

I quit reading your post after that disinformation in your first sentence which you contradicted yourself with the second sentence with.

 

You can't buy it were we live. All gas is mandated E10. And it will reek havoc on carbs if you have a tank w/o stabil for more then a couple month.

Nice to know!

I wish FDA required everyone to put on the label if corn syrup had been used, so I can avoid that poison and don't eat buy that crap.

 

Don't know here. I thought most of you guys grew up in an entrepreneurial society. The corn grown IS NOT EDIBLE. Right from the mouth of the producers and "corn infrastructure". Guess you missed that PBS show. IN FACT, a feed lot can only feed cattle on it for two weeks. After that they die. Yup, the sugar is. It could also be attained from beets or cane, it's just less expensive from corn for many reasons, not the least of which is the land is most suitable for the corn style sugar production.
Here's the thing. Food, like just about anything else, is only produced when there is a profit to be made. So claiming ethanol corn "takes away food production" is bogus. If food production on that land was profitable food would be grown there. Instead, the farmers keep their farms alive by finding something that makes money for them. If they didn't they would go out of business. If that happened who would grow your food -when- it became necessary/profitable? It takes years to set up a farm. Only a year or two to drive it out of business.
So good luck with that line of reasoning!

It sure looks to me that some environmentalists got a bee in their bonnet against ethanol. I don't think they thought it out very well.

BTW, ethanol (E10) won't harm carbs. or fuel systems. I've stored vehicles for 6 months plus with no problems. Ethyl alcohol is a major component of stabil I'm told.

 

This gets political because quite obviously a number of PriusChat members are from corn states and strongly support ethanol mandates.

Where we stand is EPA is trying to expand ethanol as much as possible, but given the fall-off in gasoline sales, the growth in ethanol volumes is slower than the ethanol lobby would prefer. EPA seems to be basically moving us to E15 gradually. EPA is making the same commitment (that Congress made) to annual increases in the ethanol blending volume. EPA have moderated the rate of ethanol growth, consistent with the slower growth of gasoline volumes. But if gasoline sales volumes contact, we could be at high levels of required ethanol. That will be when EPA gets under heat next. Right now gasoline sales are up due to cheaper gaso so there is an opportunity to increase ethanol volumes moderately.

In their new rules, EPA have mandated 10.1% ethanol in the US gaso supply, signaling a break in the 10% blend wall.

 

OPEC failed to come to agreement so oil is down belos $40, and they forecast $20/barrel in 2016.

I ran into issues with excessive ethanol content in mid-west traveling on the bike. Bought 87 which was cheaper than regular 85, and had to pull off highway due to overheating. After that was avoiding any station selling E85 (for operator it is an easy way to make money by dumping E85 into E10) and haven't had problems.

I had bike stored for several years, so forgive me know what happens. Had never been an issue prior to E10. Now I just drain fuel out of carbs, that if you can shut fuel supply off.

With respect to Stabil, you might wanna read this:
Five STA-BIL Myths, Debunked. Get The Real Fuel Stabilizer Story | Gold Eagle

 

With oil that cheap (long time ago I predicted $1/gal by Feb_2016) I presume we will get back to the point that ethanol/electricity are more expensive than gasoline. I recall back in 1999 most of the oil companies were projecting $15/bbl oil, so they might have been right (that's when we lost a lot of our oil industry due to mergers due to projected low crude prices). They just missed seeing the spike due to geo-political in the 2004-2014. China made a big gov't sponsored infrastructure development push 2000-2014 but now they have to cut back. When oil was $100, the CEO's were saying it was inflated due to speculation etc.

 

I am reading different things but it looks the price drop is due to China shifting from OPEC to loan for oil deals with non-OPEC producers and Saudi war on shale, north sea drill and tar sands. Not sure what long term effect will be on BEV/PHEV/HEV and econo car situation. I guess we still have the EPA fleet average deadline to push for. But that could be threatened if everyone runs out to buy SUVs again.

 

Will probably be totally dependent on US/state gov't policy, not free market choice.