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'Cold Start' and use of "N"

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by bwilson4web, Mar 23, 2016.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    This is an advanced, warm-up technique that is NOT for everyone. You'll never go wrong following @john1701a who posted,'Just drive the car, you'll do fine.' We'll go over how the Gen-3 warms up and then the technique.

    Our Gen-3 Prius begins to cool as soon as it is parked but in the first 2-3 hours, there is significant warmth in the engine and transaxle that shortens the next warm-up. So if you have a lunch hour, driving a mile or more for a lunch break reuses the heat saved from the morning commute and recharges the engine warmth. The return from lunch is also a warm start and helps with the return commute warm-up. I've even taken a mid-afternoon 'expensive coffee break' to keep the heat. But after 8 hours, the car has cooled to ambient, a 'cold start', just like overnight, and has these phases:
    • 45-55 seconds - heating the catalytic converter to 500-600C operating temperature. The car maximizes use of traction battery power while running the engine in a 'heat the catalytic converter mode.' Gentle acceleration can reach 25-35 mph while the engine spins just a little above idle rpm, 1300-1400 rpm, before it switches to a 'gas burning', warm-up mode.
    • 1-1.5 miles - the car is trying to get the engine coolant warmed to a minimum of 40C, usable 55C range, and on to 88-92C:
      • below 40C - engine must run in inefficient 'must warm up the engine' mode
      • above 40C - if heater is OFF, engine will stop automatically at a stop
      • above 55C - engine will stop automatically even if heater is on, the car is in 'hybrid mode' and very efficient
    This is a very advanced technique that people who have driven a manual transmission will find much easier to master. If you've always driven an automatic, probably not a good idea without two or three 'fair weather' practice sessions in a parking lot. Regardless, here is the technique:
    1. Back-in for 'forward drive' when parking - this allows looking for approaching traffic so you can delay starting until traffic and pedestrians are clear. Looking out the front windows is a lot safer. So fiddle with the radio, seat belts, and take a stretch because you want to leave when you can avoid stopping in the first mile. The goal is a 'rolling idle to warm-up.' Turn off the heater just before stopping the car so you won't forget on the next start.
    2. Choose a low-speed, slight downgrade, initial route - we are going to use "N" while rolling to minimize the 'warm-up' fuel burn while moving. So a neighborhood route posted at 25 mph is much better than straight to a 35-50 mph cross town route. At such slow speeds, stopping at a stop sign is no big deal so stop. A long, shallow downgrade helps but level is good too. Even an upgrade to a stop sign works because you can coast up to a stop without braking:
      1. READY car and accelerate keeping the engine in the 1300-1400 rpm range. If the engine 'spins up' lighten until you reach 25-30 mph and then sift to coast in "N". The engine will slow to idle warm-up speed, 1100-1200 rpm and minimum fuel burn. Keep the heater off.
      2. Shift into "D" when approaching a stop to see if engine stops.
      3. Once engine stops or 1-1.5 miles are driven, go to cross-town roads and drive to work normally.
    Does this save a lot of gas: no. For example, I drove normally through my neighborhood in 35-40F weather and for the first mile, 32 MPG, burned about 0.03 gallons. The remaining nine miles measured 60 MPG, 0.15 gallons. So total fuel burn, 0.03+0.15=0.18 gallons for 10 miles or 55.6 MPG. In similar conditions in the past, I typically get 50 MPG for 10 miles, 0.20 gallons. Was it worth it?

    On a longer than 10 mile commute, the warm-up cost becomes an insignificant fraction of the total fuel burn. But on a shorter commute, say 3-5 miles, the warm-up fuel burn becomes more significant. Caution as this is an unusual way to drive the Prius and not for everyone. Those who grew up with manual transmissions will find it easier to master but those who drove automatics, this is probably not the best approach.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
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  2. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    You'd have to come up with a different warm-up strategy if you lived, as I do, near the bottom of a valley on a ~50 mph road. To the right is up steeply after a very short initial downhill. To the left is immediately almost as steep, then interrupted by a stop sign, then a longer moderate uphill. The flip side is that I can make the last mile of the return trip on the moderate side with zero fuel burn. I could do much the same with my previous non-hybrid car, but there were three spots in that mile that required using the engine for very short distances.
     
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  3. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    How will A/C affect this - should it be off or on at the time? And will a higher ambient temperature affect things?

    (I rarely use a heater here, but A/C doesn't get switched off much, maybe early morning or in the evening or mid-winter).
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I haven't studied A/C effects beyond the usual, it is a load on the car. Happily, not a load on the engine.

    Bob Wilson
     
  5. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    There is only one unknown variable, "the engine is warm enough to stop, but you are still in N"

    If the engine is running in N it will never stop, if you miss the timing to shift to D then you are burning fuel you normally wouldn't

    My advice for cold start is to press OFF button on ventilation when you are coasting and press Auto when accelerating or cruising with engine ON (right side bar on HSI). I do this for the first 10 km of my drive, of course if I don't need front windshield defog/defrost.

    Another thing to test would be to use air-re-circulation button to keep more warmth in the cabin, but again only on a dry cold morning, otherwise windows will fog very quickly. This technique could be good in the latter stage of the drive when engine is warm enough to stop but it's still running to provide cabin heat, I get that a lot of times when going slow through city on a cold morning day.
     
  6. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I think I'll just drive the car. I think I'll be fine.
     
  7. solrunner

    solrunner Member

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    Haha, electric me.

    When starting up in winter, I don't turn the heater on until 5-10 minutes of driving. Or I will only turn it on when accelerating hard and the ICE is running. Then I will turn off the heater when coasting or stopped so it's not running the engine just to create heat.
     
  8. MauroneRelax

    MauroneRelax Junior Member

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    Thank you Bob, it looks interesting, is the opposite of what I though so far, but should work. I will try soon

    merged

    Hi sol, there is a trick I'm used to in warmup, to anticipate the use of Heater when Idle for traffic lights:
    Put N and then turn heather On. When You switch to D engine starts one second before depressing accelerator, but wont start before.
    Sorry it is opposite to Bob technique, I know to not do it if traction battery could discharge..
     
    #8 MauroneRelax, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2016
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Using "N" to keep the engine from starting at a stop is something I've used too. I'm always happy to see folks experiment and improve a technique.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. Bay Stater

    Bay Stater Senior Member

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    I will have to try that.;)

    merged

    Thanks Bob for thinking outside the box! I regularly drive very long commutes back/forth from work that are 63 miles each direction. So the above technique won't buy me anything, but I appreciate the thought.
     
    #10 Bay Stater, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2016
  11. Maarten28

    Maarten28 Active Member

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    I have not used it consciously, but I was in a long start-stop traffic jam once and I put the car in N to roll at low speeds and so it wouldn't start rolling from standstill, and it happened to me a few times that the ICE started running the moment I put the car in D.
     
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  12. MauroneRelax

    MauroneRelax Junior Member

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    Hi Bob, I like it, seems to me that warmup is faster or equal. Usually my small battery is already 6 bars, so i don't need it to get 7.. When coasting in N instant fuel cons. shows good values, this means that fuel flow is very low according to the low speed..