Challenge: Name an institution that has donated more humantarian aid for the sick and poor than the

First to Wildkow:

-I'm not going to argue against perhaps Christians donating the most humanitarian aid or who's done this and that (good or bad) in the name (or not in the name) of religion. I've got nothing against religionists except blind faith, proselytizing, and shoving religion beyond one's personal belief systems.

Regarding the very last phrase ("shoving religion beyond one's personal belief systems") and your response asking where's the proof that it's "a fiction."

-I'm betting that I'll be getting ignored by fundamentalists on this forum, but that's ok on this forum as long as I don't alienate moderates (and moderates let me know!)

-My personal belief about religions for people is that they should only be personal ("separation of state and church")... and I argue this because I've seen the opposite in some of your posts and other seeming Christians fundamentalists. It is one of my pet peeves that people (namely, fundamentalists) justify politics with religion (such as by utilizing the Scriptures to take a stance; such as on gay marriage and rights).

Now, I only put forth the following argument for the aforementioned reasons, so I hope others reading my post will not be too offended (well, if they are fundamentalists I really don't care whether or not they are offended).

(EDIT AND NOTE - so if you follow a religion moderately, it would be better and appreciated if you didn't read my post SINCE I am trying to direct it at fundamentalists)

-Buy any Bible, Quran, Bai'Hai and whatever religious guidance books there are out there.
-Place them beside each other.
-Each claims perhaps a different version of how they view reality. For example: Bai Hai's believe their prophet came some successions after the Islamic prophet. Muslims believe that Mohammed was God's final messenger (after Jesus, Abraham, etc, etc).
-Notice how similar they are. They were all written by PEOPLE. PEOPLE who defined the concepts of God and belief systems for followers of the respective books. PEOPLE, for whatever reason (control of people, distortions of reality that they are the divine prophets, etc), WROTE these ideas down and developed them.

I am sorry to say this Wildkow, but you weren't born a Christian. You weren't taught what God meant until your preachers or pastors or whoever told you about the concept of God. You were born into life as a form of atheist (not having the belief in "God").

When you get down to the beef of the matter, you'll find religions are a human invention. They can be beneficial in some cases, but perhaps not in others depending on how each person defines religion and their beliefs for themselves.

 

Then you should work to end intolerance, ignorance, bigotry, and hate within Christianity.

The United States Government. You're welcome. Next question.

 

My challenge; Name an institution that has given more humanitarian aid to the sick and poor than the Christian Church.

Let's change the question to a more realistic one:

Name any person or institution who has given more humanitarian aid to the sick and poor than the christian church AS A PERCENTAGE OF AFTER TAX INCOME

Answer...I HAVE

 

Thanks for pointing out the error.... I think we tend to get caught up by the right wing label.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 17 2006, 03:25 AM) [snapback]256733[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 17 2006, 03:25 AM) [snapback]256733[/snapback]</div>

It is???? I guess that its really nice of them to allow us non-Christians to stay here, then.

 

Wildkow,

I thought about your statements some more... and I would like to debate the issue:

First of all, I think you might want to reconsider your argument that the USA is a "Christian nation." Perhaps you might want to word it something a nation built upon judeo-christian values... but not necessarily by the term you used. Here's why: that phrase has drastic negative political implications. By calling USA a Christian nation, you are admitting to one of Al queyda's fundamentalist justifications for their actions... along the lines that the Christian west was invading the Islamic lands... and thus by stating that the USA is a Christian nation, what is happening around the world reeks more of a religious war.

Second... in regards to your call for tolerance... you do bring a good point... BUT I think we consider you a fundamentalist because some your responses in PC threads seem to indicate so... like take for example the Creationist thread... generally it's fundamentalists who support the views you did. It's often fundamentalists who (and let's not forget that civil liberties for blacks/women were only granted some 4 decades ago) from or originally from the South that are the most intolerant. Perhaps I was wrong to consider you a fundamentalist... I suppose there probably are fundamentalists who actively deny evolution yet aren't rebel flag wavers and aren't racist... but denial of evolution, racism, bigotry, "faggot hatred," bible and war thumping (Christian fundamentalists were the biggest supporters of the Iraq war) etc is often interlinked with religious fundamentalism.

I watched the youtube video... and not for a second did I ever think you would go as far as that woman did... but in being intolerant of intolerant people, us liberals or atheists or whatever position you have on the left have to watch our ourselves and make sure we don't become bigots ourselves.

I hope you stay cool if you decide to respond to my message... I'm looking for civil debate here, and I know few would deny wanting that.

I also have a question for you... I don't know what your stance is on the war on Iraq... but I was wondering if you had an answer for a question I've been pondering a LONG time:
-Why did so many fundamentalists support the Iraq war via the Scriptures against the Ten Commandents... I mean what is fundamentalist justification for war hawkishness when one commandment says "Thou shall not kill?"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 17 2006, 03:25 AM) [snapback]256733[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 17 2006, 12:25 AM) [snapback]256733[/snapback]</div>

This is not a Christian country.

It is a nation that was founded predominantly by Christians, most of whom were descendants of refugees from religious persecution in Europe, and is still populated predominantly by Christians of various denominations.

Our Constitution forbids the government's endorsement of any particular religion.

 

Our Constitution forbids the government's endorsement of any particular religion.

This PRIUS driver says, "Thank God for that"

Can I get an Amen?.....

Dave

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KD6HDX @ May 30 2006, 08:47 AM) [snapback]262736[/snapback]</div>

Amen & halleluya.

Separation of church and state is what separates us from terrorist nations. It was a great idea while it lasted.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ May 2 2006, 08:31 PM) [snapback]248838[/snapback]</div>

I agree. If you really want to help someone, you help them in the way in which *they* need help.

Also, I do think that religious zealotry is rather a serious problem. Once again, the vocal minority seems to hijack the messaging. It seems to taint the purity of the outreach and evokes feelings of fear in some people when the 'missionary' aspect of the Christian Church comes into play.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mikepaul @ May 8 2006, 08:08 AM) [snapback]251393[/snapback]</div>

I think this is the crux of the religion paradox: how can a spiritually oriented, theoretically 'perfect' belief system exist in a materially oriented, supremely imperfect (but not 'flawed') world?

I think we're seeing this manifest itself today, with the Mega Churches vs. more traditional practitioners of Christianity.

I know that my parents often tried to help me...but, despite their best efforts, sometimes it actually might have left damage. But they were just people, trying their best...I think, as long as we have some assurance that the people in control of religious organizations are "trying their best" and performing as selflessly as possible, that's all we can ask.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 1 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]248438[/snapback]</div>

And I'm tired of "religious" people trying to impose their own morals and beliefs on people outside their own religion, especially through educational and governmental institutions. Frankly, nothing makes me angrier than outsiders telling people how to live their lives.

We're even.

You choose to believe in religion, I choose not to make my own decisions about life, rather than subscribe to someone else's theories.

We agree to disagree, but at least I'm not forcing my beliefs on others.

Dave

 

How much time do you have?

--They lobby the government
--They attempt to get schools to teach creationism under the term "intelligent design" and direct large sums of money for legal defense of these efforts
--They attempt to marginalize people based upon criterion beyond the individual's control
--They buy hospitals and then don't provide services which go against specific "Christian Values"
--They provide essential human aid, but tie it to a missionary message

How's that for starters?

Yes, "liberal organizations" do that too (I don't fall for the "well, but they do it too" moral relativism that I know you don't like either)...but you asked about "Christians."

I'm providing a reply.

 

Requoted for posterity.

THE most asinine and ignorant statement to ever have come out of Wildkow's orifice.

And that is saying something.

In answer to the OP: Take the millions if not billions of people unlucky enough to come in contact in Christianity. Kill 50% off the bat. Starve to death half the remainder. Torture to death a fair fraction of those remaining. At this point feed, clothe, and indoctrinate the wretched few left with their own slave labor, and

Hallelujah -- Charity. On a grand scale.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Nov 6 2006, 04:39 PM) [snapback]344695[/snapback]</div>

But...the other side of the coin is that (I believe) some of this possibly extreme reaction which I've taken delight in pointing out is due to the efforts of the 'other side.'

I don't think either the 'conservatives' or the 'liberals' are individually at fault. What's happening now is part of a larger dynamic that seems to me remarkably like a dysfunctional relationship.

Which is good, because that means that *everyone* can help make the situation better.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eyeguy13 @ May 2 2006, 11:11 PM) [snapback]248962[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 4 2006, 04:40 AM) [snapback]249597[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ May 9 2006, 09:06 AM) [snapback]252161[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ May 13 2006, 08:47 AM) [snapback]254736[/snapback]</div>

Ok Kow - I want to resurrect this one, without any unnecessary bashing. Here's the short list I came up with in an hour or so (including previously posted United Way and Care USA):

1. United Way, 2005: $1,810,000,000.00 (I was unable to track a better report, as the United Way consists of at least two organizations UWI and UWA. I did try to narow it down. I did divide the number in half as their reports were for '04 and '05 consolidated)
2. International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, Geneva, 2005: $ 386,712,753.80 (Includes relief supplies, transportaion and storage, equipment, travel, communications, and contributions to other organizations, based on an avg exchange rate of 1.24 for 2005)
3. Islamic Relief, USA: $ 41,120,048.00
4. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Grants, 2005: $ 1,566,809.00 Direct Charity: $ 37,921.00
5. UN World Food Program, 2005: $ 2,892,401.00
6. Care, USA, 2005: $ 513,924.00

Call it 2.24 Billion.

"Christian" Relief organizations:
1. Salvation Army, 2005: $ 2,280,840,000.00 (I wish I could find a proper, audited annual report on this one with everything broken out, but I can't. Among other things, they are exempt from IRS 990 filing as a religious organization, making their finances pretty opaque to public scrutiny.)

Well, I guess we can stop there. I suspect that I would have been a little better off if I had been able to find the annual statements for Islamic Relief International, as I'm virtually certain that they get and contribute more internationally than they do domestically, but, much as it makes my teeth itch to say it, I can't prove Kow wrong on this one.

Here is the major problem with this sort of comparison - it is very difficult to determine what portion of expenditures are included in the "Total" numbers. It is VERY common for things like staff training and travel to be lumped into the total.

 

Well if you're going to try to take the credit for the goodwill, why not take the credit for the not so goodwill.

Name an institution that has molested more children in american history:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ab...1&cset=true

Don't hate the messenger.