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A 5-seat Toyota Prius Prime is on the way

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by Tideland Prius, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. Sarge

    Sarge Senior Member

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    Agree completely.

    If only people would buy a vehicle based on their need, not want. We have a second vehicle and my wife carts the kids around most of the time in her Leaf, so I drive solo in my Prius 99% of the time. So, in that sense, a 4-seater would be fine for me the vast majority of the time.

    The reason the 4 seats in the Prime is a reasonable disappointment for me, (but not a deal killer) since we are a family of 4 anyway (kids are 9 and 5). Where the lacking middle seat is annoying to me is that there is no official place for the dog (cocker spaniel), but he is not so big that I can't jerry-rig something with his harness and seat belt into the latch system and his dog bed on the console. :). Since the Leaf only goes so far, the Prius is not only my work vehicle, but our road trip vehicle too.

    But anyway, I bought a used PiP recently, so I am good for a few years, and will see how the mid cycle refresh goes in a couple years. :cool:
     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's where the newly trained prime sales professionals will come in. when peeps come into the showrooms, they aren't going to know what hit them, but many will be leaving with prime, instead of tundra, sienna, land barge.
     
  3. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    The amount of legroom in the Prius v is OK, but the combined front and back passenger legroom is actually less than the regular Prius. I've posted this before, but the numbers confirming this are right on Toyota's website.

    For most average sized results it's OK, but the problem here is that using large rear-facing child car seats becomes a problem. In the Prius it's a tight fit already, but in the Prius v it's even worse, because the 2nd row can't slide far enough back. In fact, even with the help with of the Toyota sales guy, I could not get a Britax Advocate Clicktight car seat (a popular high end model) to fit behind the driver's side seat, and I'm only 5'7".

    I attribute this directly to the fact that the Prius v being designed for 3 rows. If it really had 3 rows, I'd understand more, but the fact is in North America it doesn't. So we're left with a 3 row design reducing combined front/2nd row leg room, but no 3rd row to show for it, which is why I say it's the worst of both worlds.

    That actually shocked me BTW, since one might guess the Prius v's larger design might be more suited to young families, but it isn't really.

    Note that Toyota isn't the only offender here. The good news is that family friendly class of vehicles the small crossover, works better for many families. Toyota's RAV4 hybrid has much more room than both the Prius and the Prius v in this context. Strangely though, some other brands in this class also don't work for this, again much to my surprise. They're (arguably) SUVs after all.
     
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  4. inferno

    inferno Senior Member

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    Toyota.. I think people ultimately care here because they believe you are on to something... Better mpg better mpge and just missing some versatility that'll win people over as long as the msrp remains very competitive and that we know that 22 miles ev is absolutely minimum.

    And why not increase usable battery r?
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    We get a lot of spin. Many times, that isn't even intended. It's just a perspective people aren't aware they are stuck in. They have a set of expectations and don't realize what else is available.

    Over and over, we hear the glass is half empty. They are taking away a seat that rarely gets used for most and used occasionally by others. Why hasn't anyone noticed the other view?

    The glass can be considered half full too. Why not improve seating in back, starting with the introduction of a center console and bucket seats? We also get the sensors that detect where passengers are and directs the air-circulation accordingly. How come that isn't acknowledged as an effort to offer improvement for back seating?

    I'm tired of the nonsense and know after so many years of close study that the typical consumer won't raise such a huff. Family dynamics change anyway. What will work with the children while they are young will alter as the years pass. What do you do with the car then? People naturally seek out different after a while too.

    Toyota is hoping to capitalize on the opportunity... and getting grief for taking the risk... despite breaking out and not playing it safe being the very thing they were told to do. Take a chance, get criticized. Geez!
     
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    well, you have to admit, since toyota didn't design prime for current owners, backlash was inevitable. why not give up trying to win people over for a car that isn't targeted at them?
     
    Trollbait and Felt like this.
  7. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    We can dream.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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  9. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    That's a very philosophical post and I see where you're coming from, but then again, it does sound an awful lot like just apologizing for Toyota.

    I appreciate their taking a chance, but if they're going to luxury-up the Prime then perhaps they get the other factors right too like noise insulation, which I would value way, way more than gimmicky air flow redirecting sensors. For that, I'd prefer just having user adjustable vents, to be honest.

    But in the end for me it's moot. I simply won't consider the Prime, because it's missing that 3rd rear seat. Do I absolutely need it? No, but I definitely want it. And since we're talking about needs and wants, I don't need the Prime either, and I don't want it. A Prius or other car would suffice. I'm not going spend way more money on the Prime only to compromise heavily on features I want like that 5th seat. The Prius and other cars have it, but the Prime does not. So, it's off the list for me.

    Once it does get that 5th seat, it will be a consideration, but I will weigh my various options, not the least of which is cost, factoring in what government incentives exist at that time.
     
    #129 Eug, Jul 26, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  10. KrPtNk

    KrPtNk Active Member

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    Improved noise reduction over the 4th gen was one of the features mentioned in the promotional information presented by Toyota. Since there hasn't been any real test driving done with a production model one can't determine if it is quieter. The test driving in Japan recently was on a track while wearing a helmet, hardly a chance to evaluate sound proofing. No one made mention of road noise in the reviews I read. Maybe I missed something.
     
  11. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    I guess I've been biased by the quietness of the Lexus, but then again the RAV4 Hybrid is OK. If they could get the Prime's noise down to RAV4 Hybrid levels that'd be a major improvement, but that would be a huge improvement and more than I'd expect. BTW, the Gen 1 PiP is quite loud on the highway IMO.
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    There is no way for a car enthusiast publication to praise a mainstream vehicle. Learning that lesson early on in Prius history made understanding their perspective a whole lot easier. What do you do when something worthwhile happens outside your demographic?

    Complicating matters 15 years later is the reality of hybrid audience dividing. We have some wanting to plug in and other perfectly happy with the no-plug approach. Since both have pursue the same objective of enticing traditional buyers, you run into the same mainstream vehicle conflict. You sound apologetic, like you are somehow breaking principle. Ugh.

    It's just one of those things... and I simply don't care what it sounds like. That goal of change purchases of ordinary consumers still remains true. Diversity is necessary. That means some will like it and some will like something else.

    There won't be any government incentives available. That's why Toyota is taking the risk now. Don't wait. Push to grow the market now.

    It just plain doesn't make any sense trying to appeal to the audience who is already interested in Prius. The effort with Prime is to draw in those who want something different. 4 seats is different.

    Remember, all the vehicles this generation will witness tax-credit expiration mid-cycle. They must be able to compete without that help.
     
    #132 john1701a, Jul 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  13. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    I'd agree. The road noise in the PiP is quite loud as is MG1 whine IMHO. Can't wait to get new tires to see if that helps. The new Pirellis on my wife's Venza helped tremendously with road noise, control and ride. Listening to Danny Cooper on his podcast, "What Drives Us", he said the Prime was really quiet (and he had it up to 70 when the Toyota people weren't looking - ;) ). Of course he owns an i3 and he admits he won't be in the market for a Prime because he has 3 kids and he already uses the i3 as his daily driver which only seats 4 as well.


    Unsupervised!
     
  14. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    Huh? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I sound apologetic because I want something Toyota isn't offering? Uh, what?

    Diversity in car choice is great. However, this time it's pushing me away from that car. And apparently, it's pushing away a lot of people who might have otherwise chosen that car. Whether it will catch a different batch of new buyers is unknown, but I'm not optimistic here.

    I suspect Toyota is well aware of this, which is why they leaked that bit of info that a 5 seater is likely coming, so they don't lose us completely in the interim.

    Haste makes waste. I'm not going to jump now at a car I don't want just because you predict government incentives might be gone in the future.

    BTW, I don't live in the US.

    The only reason I even looked at the PiP in the first place was because I was looking for a Prius. I had no desire to buy any of the other EVs or PEVs.

    Yes. I'd guess for the majority of the population, including the potential Prime market, it's worse. Not a deal-killer for everyone of course, but a negative. And a deal-killer for people like me.

    Like I said, I don't live in the US. In fact, in my province, they've recently increased incentives for EVs and PHEVs. There's no guarantee they'll still be around in the future as governments change all the time, but there is a strong possibility those rebates will still be here in a few years. If not, I probably won't buy a Prime, unless prices drastically are decreased. If they do, and Toyota introduces a 5-seater, I'll consider it.

    Or maybe I'll just decide to buy nothing, and drive this PiP into the ground and wait for Prime 2.
     
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  15. Eug

    Eug Swollen Member

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    Tires help a fair bit, but stuff like wind noise on the PiP is still loud. It's noticeably less in our RAV4 Hybrid.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Since the majority of cars have 60/40 split rear seats, losing the middle seat to give the outside ones more comfort is not needed. Then plenty of cars have a fold down center armrest in the rear that also offers storage and cup holders.

    Tesla, GM, and Nissan are the companies that will be running out of US federal credits soon. Between the PiP and Rav4 EV, Toyota used only a quarter of their 200,000 cars. They have plenty to cover this generation of the Prius Prime, unless they start introducing more plug in models.
     
  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Even at the modest rate of 30K without any new rollouts, that's still not enough. The phaseout will happen in this generation.

    Your pessimism doesn't make sense either. No market growth? Low gas prices? No pressure to compete? No battery-tech advancements? No new offerings?



    What are you basing that prediction on?

    Feedback so far has been on a isolated group, that which is clearly not representative of mainstream buyers.

    Having observed rollouts many times over the past 16 years, I don't see that. In fact, the pattern I recognize confirms a disconnect.
     
    #137 john1701a, Jul 27, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2016
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    30k a year isn't a modest rate, it would be an amazing rate in comparison what other plug ins have achieved. Only the Leaf managed to do it for one year. In the other years, the top seller was 23k to 25k. The PiP managed 42k over 4 years.
    Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard

    Being a Toyota and a Prius, the Prime should get to 20k a year. Which will leave Toyota with 50k for federal credits at the end of this generation's run.
    Much of the plug in segment growth appears to be from the introduction of new models, not one model making huge gains. When that one model arrives though, I expect it to be a Tesla.

    Plug in sales don't seem to be as effected by low gas prices like hybrids.
    Based on past actions, Toyota doesn't appear to feel any large pressure to compete in plug ins. They let their partnership with Tesla for the Rav4 EV end without commitment to another BEV model, and have been very quiet about any other upcoming plug in models that could be in the pipeline. Most of their public energy seems directed towards the Mirai.

    Li-ion has been steadily advancing. Their cost to the auto manufacturers might be lower than the federal credit value at this point in time. By the time GM loses the credits on the Volt, I expect they will be able to drop the price to keep it on par with today's price minus the credits. As for some miracle breakthrough that will shatter the already better than predicted advancement of Li-ion, I won't hold my breath. I think we might see Al-air come to market, but this only suitable as a range extender to an EV with a rechargeable battery.
     
  19. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Missing detail... That was with just 3 years of availability and in only 15 states.
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Forgive me for rounding 11 months up to a year for 4.
    The states supposedly selected for availability represented 60% of the Prius market.
    The PiP's sales performance is why I'm saying the prime should sell 20k a year.