Tyranny of the Christian Right (AlterNet)

I think you'll find that most of us here bash the current influence of the christian right in politics, which is pretty different from bashing christianity.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 07:56 PM) [snapback]263063[/snapback]</div>

Now THAT is a great way to put it!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ May 30 2006, 07:56 PM) [snapback]263064[/snapback]</div>

NOT!

i think it's like 75/25 in favor of christian bashing...

c'mon, you KNOW if you bash their influence in politics they are indirectly bashing christians themselves....

 

Then why do Christians like my mom come down so strongly against the religious right? We have a new poster (his name escapes me) who spoke eloquently FOR christianity as well as the separation of church and state.

I have nothing against Christianity, I have something against Christianity being inserted in places where no religions belong.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 30 2006, 07:47 PM) [snapback]263057[/snapback]</div>

What's that have to do with what I said? I'm quoting the bible, and you give me some "coach from cheers" non-sequitur. You said the bible was never wrong, I brought up an issue, and you give me this line.

I applaud the skills you've shown while defending your holy book.

 

Mmmm.. Lets see the article was written by Michelle Goldberg. Mmmm

Mr. Larkin it seems all your woes are a product of the Christian right. Is this true?

Do you also blame the Gays for AIDS? Do you blame the Blacks for the crime rate? Do you blame Clinton for 9/11? and on and on..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(larkinmj @ May 30 2006, 10:40 PM) [snapback]263176[/snapback]</div>

It is in Romans 1:27. But I do recommend you read more. Perhaps start with the book of John.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 30 2006, 08:18 PM) [snapback]263072[/snapback]</div>

It was an analogy to help show you that you are taking things out of context. You don't know the Bible. Try reading it. As I suggested earlier, maybe the book of John would be a good place to start.

Once you get back from Egypt, let me know how you liked the pyramids. You are going right? The Bible told a group of people to leave Egypt, so since it is all applicable to you, you should visit there so you can leave as the Bible instructs. This makes as much sense as your laboring over how slaves were treated thousands of years ago.

I won't be able to chat with you much today. I don't have an conference calls so I'll be doing my work today. Maybe later or this evening.

I do have a question. You made an earlier reference to a good human being and a religious zealot. It was wondering what your definition of good is. For example, a know a man who is a liar and breaks the law almost daily. I know another man who sets aside some of his income every month to help the poor and needy. He heard of a woman with 3 small children whose car died. She couldn't afford even a used car, so he bought her a new Camry. He gives of his time to build houses for the poor and frequently gives thousands of dollars to help. In my opinion, neither is good. God said there is none righteous, no not one. What do you think? Is either or both of these men good?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 31 2006, 07:37 AM) [snapback]263301[/snapback]</div>

I have read it, and I quoted it. You just can't come up to any possible rationale for those quotes. After all, "all parts of the bible are correct". SO those must be correct too. Unless you use some sort of feeling to judge which parts of the bible are pertinent to life, and which parts aren't. In either case, you've proven my point brilliantly, and I thank you for it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 31 2006, 10:42 AM) [snapback]263368[/snapback]</div>

I think you are confusing the fact that the Bible is always correct with it is all applicable to today. The history in the Bible is correct as are the other information, but just as the part about slavery doesn't apply today, leaving Egypt doesn't apply today, offering animal sacrifices doesn't apply today, etc. When you read the entire Bible and take it as a whole book you will see that. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice so no additional sacrifices are needed.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the Bible and Christians. I believe you have referred to me as a self-righteous preacher; somewhat psychopathic; for whom you recommend isolation and seclusion; potentially dangerous; and a zealot christian.

No other book has been so attacked throughout history as the Bible. In A.D. 300 the Roman emperor Diocletian ordered every Bible burned because he thought that by destroying the Scriptures he could destroy Christianity. Anyone caught with a Bible would be executed. But just 25 years later, the Roman emperor Constantine ordered that 50 perfect copies of the Bible be made at government expense. The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on. The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles.

The Bible has also survived criticism. No book has been more attacked for its accuracy. And yet archeologists are proving every year that the Bible’s detailed descriptions of historic events are correct.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 31 2006, 12:48 PM) [snapback]263443[/snapback]</div>

Come on mike... just answer the question. How do you know which parts of the bible are applicable to today? What makes the "thou shalt not kill" any more applicable than the "thou can buy slaves from foreigners"? Is it a feeling?

FYI, I've never referred to you as a self-righteous preacher. You are perhaps somewhat psychopathic, your reliance on a book for morals in situations when most people would just know what to do is clear proof of that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 31 2006, 01:32 PM) [snapback]263469[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure how I can explain it any more. I've told you that you cannot take verses out of context. If a verse is for a particular group of people in a particular situation it is clear from the context. If it is for all of mankind that is also clear from its context. You can learn from how people groups responded and lived and be able to apply those truths to your life and learn from them as well. This will then have application for you today. We learn from our own as well as others mistakes and successes.

This verse is obviously very important and relevant to you and has certainly been of value to you for you have learned that you still need Christ through our conversations. 1 Cor. 1:18 says "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor. 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."

By the way, I have a Master's degree in Counseling and the definition for Psychopath is defined as "having no concern for the feelings of others and a complete disregard for any sense of social obligation. They seem egocentric and lacking insight and any sense of responsibility or consequence. Their emotions are thought to be superficial and shallow, if they exist at all. They are considered callous, manipulative and incapable of forming lasting relationships, let alone of any kind of love. It is thought that any emotions which the true psychopath exhibits are the fruits of watching and mimicking other people's emotions. They show poor impulse control and a low tolerance for frustration and aggression." I'm not sure what making a personal attack does for you, but to me my book says that is wrong. If I depended on my feelings, I might have done likewise.

I hope this has been of help to you. If not, perhaps you will recall it some time in the future when you are more open to the truth of God.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 31 2006, 03:24 PM) [snapback]263535[/snapback]</div>

I'm not taking the verses out of context. But maybe you could explain in what context buying slaves from foreingers was ever OK with god?

BTW, I wasn't making a personal attack, just an observation, which I stand by. If you have to run your moral decisions via a book, you've got issues. I urge you to seek help.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 31 2006, 03:27 PM) [snapback]263540[/snapback]</div>

Wow, that sounds very personal to me. My feelings say it is personal. I guess you can't always trust your feelings. I guess I'll have to use something else that is more consistent and doesn't change.

Ok, so you don't understand context. It is a common mistake. Sometimes the Bible can be confusing to non believers and the context can be blurred.

Exodus means "going out". It contains the Mosaic constitution.
Leviticus consists of ritual laws. It's name come from the tribe of Levi, to which the hereditary priests belonged.

These books were written to the Israelites. The verses you are referring to have to do with slaves or owners of slaves. They also give instruction as to what to do during special festivals and in the year of Jubilee.

So are you an Israelite? Do you own or are you a slave? Do you have any sons or daughters who are slaves? Is this the year of Jubilee? If your answer to any of these questions is no, then this doesn't apply to you within this context. Now, the Bible has to be taken as a whole. So you have to also ask if these same instructions were given to other people groups at different times of the year. Do you qualify under those circumstances?

Also let me say that I appreciate your concern for my well being.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 31 2006, 05:00 PM) [snapback]263605[/snapback]</div>

I have to say, I find any attempt to defend the bible's portrayal of slavery as acceptable as sickening. I mean, even most moderate christians will say it's one of those things that you just have to disregard today. But man, you just keep plugging and plugging and trying to defend it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 31 2006, 05:07 PM) [snapback]263610[/snapback]</div>

I must say I am encouraged to see of your interest in the Bible. However, instead of cluttering up the posts with so many non-Prius related topics and since it is mostly you and I having this discussion, why don't we take it to the message mode. We can continue our Bible Study there. I recommend we start with the book of John. It is one of the easier to grasp. If you don't have a Bible handy, I can recommend a good online site.

What do you think?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 31 2006, 04:25 PM) [snapback]263674[/snapback]</div>

First, you're in Fred's, which is non-Prius by definition.

Second, the to and fro is interesting to others; I've been following a good deal of it, poised to pounce in, and would hate to see it dragged out of sight. Those who aren't interested in it will simply ignore it, and those who complain about it should be referred to point 1, above.

If you're uncomfortable having this discussion in public, take it private by all means, but I can assure you I would have NO interest in a private discussion: the entire point of a chatboard is public expression of opinion, even in the guise of a two-party debate.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ May 31 2006, 07:51 PM) [snapback]263686[/snapback]</div>

I concur.

And I still await any explanations on how the holy book could endorse slavery, or more importantly, selling your daughter into slavery(!) under any condition.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ May 31 2006, 07:51 PM) [snapback]263686[/snapback]</div>

I'm still fairly new to PriusChat so I wasn't sure if we were out of line. Thanks for the direction.

And no, I am not uncomfortable sharing my beliefs in public.

Enjoy the show!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ May 31 2006, 08:40 PM) [snapback]263707[/snapback]</div>

I guess I am baffled why you are not getting this. You mentioned you were expert in the topic of slavery. You do realize the slavery of the Bible is not the same slavery we had here in the States Civil War era?

The Bible gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw the practice altogether. Many What many people don’t understand is that slavery in the Bible times is completely different from the slavery that was practiced in the United States in the 1700’s and 1800’s. The slavery in the Bible was not based on race at all. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more of a social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, even politicians were slaves of someone else for one reason or another. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master.

The slavery of the 1700’s and 1800’s was based on skin color. Black people were considered slaves because of their nationality – most slave owners truly believed black people to be “inferior human beings†to white people. This is similar to the slavery the Jews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Jews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Jews (Exodus 13:14). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condone slavery. However, the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

Does that explain it any better?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mike0422 @ May 31 2006, 08:52 PM) [snapback]263716[/snapback]</div>

Sure...

So what you're in essence saying was Civil War slavery was bad because it was based on skin color, but selling your daughter into slavery is good if you ignore skin color.

How utterly christian of you.