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Brake shudder under extended braking

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by alanderego, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. alanderego

    alanderego Member

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    Hi everybody,
    So we have a 2010 Prius with about 60K miles and the only problem we have is the ticking/clicking sound when braking and making right turns, but that is for another posting.
    The brakes have been really great until we moved 2 years ago. From our old house to my work was basically a flat drive, but our new house is located on the other side of the island and I drive up a mountain and back down. Going to work is OK because it is a steep climb, but the back side is a gradual descent and the regen does the braking. On the ride home though, it is opposite. It is a gradual climb up and then at the top, I have to use heavy braking for about 1 mile then it is flat for 1/8 mile and then back to a steep decline using heavy braking. The first year the Prius has been braking fine, but now on the decline the front brakes start to shudder/judder. Luckily, when the brakes start to make the sound, I am on the last part of the heavy braking and it goes away under light braking. I am worried about this because my 19 year old daughter uses the car now and I don't want this to happen to her.
    Does anyone else experience this?
    Have you found a fix?
    I have been looking into this for a few months and some say the rotors are the issue and some website I read (it was a performance brakes manufacturer website) said that they have never seen the rotors warp to cause shuddering.
    I don't mind buying performance rotors/pads if that what it takes to stop it.

    Thanks,
    Alan
     
  2. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    What did the last inspection of the brakes reveal? Pad thickness? Rotors warped? When you descend down the steep incline, are you using "B" mode? Are you the main driver of the car, or do others frequently drive it? Could someone else have driven it and caused damage through sudden heavy braking?
     
  3. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

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    A good brake check should include what post #2 said, but also include clean and relube caliper pins.
     
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  4. alanderego

    alanderego Member

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    I forgot to say that the brakes have never been serviced (just inspected during oil changes).
    The last inspection was about 6 months ago and there was nothing told to me about them (I am sure they would find something wrong). They always give free brake inspection with oil change, but I guess I should bring it in just for a brake inspection (I don't know how thoroughly they check the brakes).
    My daughter has been driving for a few years now, so she could have done hard stops (I have Automatic and it does not show any hard braking, but she could be braking just enough not to be detected).
    Thanks for the advice,
    Alan
     
    #4 alanderego, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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  5. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Probably best to get a good inspection and diagnosis.

    My wife's 98 4Runner has a similar shutter. But it has been there for years. She drives it all the time and is aware of it. I drive it infrequently and know it is there. We don't have any other drivers in the house or anyone who borrows it and it is only used around town these days for running our little ones here and there. We put maybe 4-5 k miles a year on it anymore. The Prius is the road tripper;).

    If my kids were old enough and we had the 4Runner in the same condition, I would get it looked at, as I wouldn't begin to guess where the kids might go.

    Good luck(y).
     
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I'm skeptical of what a free brake inspection entails, more than likely just a cursory look-over while rotating the tires.

    A proper brake inspection entails:

    1. removal of pads and check of condition/thickness
    2. removal, clean and relube of the caliper pins
    3. not mandatory, but if there's any pulling/pulsing: check of disk runout and thickness
    4. cleaning of pads, shims, contact points.
    5. Reinstall of pads/shims with anti-seize on all faying surfaces.

    The Toyota Repair Manual doesn't properly describe a "brake inspection" or "brake maintenance". It's section on brakes shows exploded diagrams, and describes what's essentially a complete tear-down of the brakes, something that pretty much never is done. Honda was better in the this regard: outlines the nuts-and-bolts of an "inspection".

    Anyway, the attachment is useful, has disk thickness and runout specs, bolt torque values.
     

    Attached Files:

    #6 Mendel Leisk, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
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  7. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    The brake disc runout test measures whether the brake rotor is flat or warped, and it also measures its thickness. I think this is what you need.

    A brake pad/rotor replacement should not be too expensive and it's basic maintenance. I've done it myself before; it's not too hard.
     
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  8. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

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    Do you feel any pulsation and the steering wheel slightly jiggle, when you brake? If so, front rotors may be slightly warped. Caliper pins likely dry after 6 years (if purchased in 2010) or 7 years (if purchased in 2009).

    Have a through brake inspection performed for front and rear, as Mendel outlines in post #6 and a runout test for the discs. Hopefully this uncovers your braking issue(s).
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    For DIY check of the rotor, you need a dial indicator with magnetic base:

    upload_2016-9-24_13-44-43.png

    And micrometer:

    upload_2016-9-24_13-46-33.png

    Both are not much, maybe $20~30 apiece.
     
  10. alanderego

    alanderego Member

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    Thanks for all the advice.
    I am a little old school and I usually wait until the pad warning squeal starts before I start a brake servicing, but I guess the Prius' brakes needs more attention than what I am used to.
    My Dad has all those tools to check the runout and the thickness of the rotor.
    While I am there, I am going to lube everything up.
    If the rotors and pads need replacing,
    Does anyone feel that I should put in heavy duty type of rotors or pads?

    Thanks again,
    Alan
     
  11. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    The thing is, pads and rotors often go 200,000 miles in a Prius. It's because, when you brake lightly, the transmission applies regenerative braking to slow the vehicle while charging the battery.

    In your case, at 60,000 miles, if they wore out, I'd suspect either the caliper pins froze up from no lubrication, or you've been mashing the brake pedal too hard. But maybe you're in a cold weather state where they salt the roads, or something else happened.
     
    #11 Rebound, Sep 24, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  12. exstudent

    exstudent Senior Member

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    Just get OEM pads and rotors.

    Original owner, and still on original brake parts (front pads & disc rotor, rear shoes & drum). 157K miles & 9y/o car vs your 60K miles & 7y/o car; something definitely went wrong.
     
  13. Toppcat

    Toppcat Member

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    Sound like you need new rotors and brakes! Either the rotors are worn thin, or produce hot spots on them! Hot spots are visually seen by inspecting the rotor plainly they are dark blue discolorations spots! When under extreme heated conditions they will have different friction values general will feel like a grabbing effective. Also check the brake pads for crack's generally pads under these.conditions are heat glazed with tiny hair line cracks. If heavy and prolong braking conditions are required if there are performance rotors ( drilled or slotted rotors) match with performace ceramic pads are design to with stand higher heat range, but high performance semi metallic be ok too!
     
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    To me "old school" means a periodic, in-depth inspection and cleaning. Also, only the rear brakes have an audible warning.

    I'd suggest to use the pads (and shims if they're knackered) purchased through a dealership parts department.

    I would not just knee-jerk replace the rotors, use your dad's dial indicator and micrometer, check them against specifications first. And, minor scoring may clear up with new pads, they're surprisingly resilient in my experience.

    Be careful with the rear brakes, it's imperative the back of inner pad pin stays between the caliper piston spokes, or the brakes will drag.

    Disconnect 12 volt battery at the outset whenever opening up the brakes, and before reconnection pump the brake pedal several times. This is to avoid faults triggered due to brake pedal excess travel.
     
    #14 Mendel Leisk, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  15. alanderego

    alanderego Member

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    Thanks for all the input. I have been busy lately, but I will do a more thorough examination of the front brakes.

    Alan
     
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