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Why the BMW i3-REx

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by bwilson4web, May 15, 2016.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Solar cells would probably pay for themselves in a few years.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Bob, when i filter the Charge point app to 'only' display (the ever growing) QC's between AL & OK, the present-day distances between the 2 states'QC's appears to be sufficiently populated to cover all parts of the route with distances being no greater than ~ 175 miles. (see attached)

    FlashAnnotate.jpg

    That's coverage for both I.20 & I.40 - meaning it's not necessarily dodgy quantities of QC's that becomes an' issue' - so much as it is the dodgy range of most EV's. So ironically - even though the map above represents the relative refueling ease for a longer range ride like Tesla (who btw have even more supercharger lications already commissioned for install along these 2 routes) the use of which is rolled into new/used purchase price - most can't buy new, or choose not to pay the lower used price of ~ $48k ( which includes their future fuel transportation costs)
    All that to say a less expensive option than some that you proposed above, would be to either pick another car, or wait a few more months until one of the other vehicles becomes available that can use the existing and growing present-day infrastructure.
    .
     

    Attached Files:

    #222 hill, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Filter on CCS/SAE as that is the high-speed DC charger socket built-in to my car. The nearest one I've found is Nashville.

    I have a Level 2 charger at home. The car only takes 7.2 kW or 3 hrs at max rate. I refuel gas in 15 min including exit and return to highway speed.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #223 bwilson4web, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Yes I fully understand your dilemma. There are very very few "Society of Automotive Engineers" QC's around the nation. That's exactly what I meant when I said the EV model you bought, does not & cannot take advantage of the most popular quick Chargers around the nation - namely, the supercharger & CHAdeMO.
    As I read through many of your posts, I know how you like to seek out the freebie Chargers. But when you go looking for 'free QC's - you find way more of the CHADEMO's .... & when you look for superchargers - same thing. Because with supercharger - you pay for them upfront. Plus - Tesla only makes an adapter for CHAdeMO QC' S - not the handfull of SAE' s around the nation. All that to say - you're quick charging dilemma is because BMW decided to support SAE. Thus, the most economical way to take advantage of the largest Quick Charge Network would be to "jump-ship" so to speak. I'm not saying you should jump from bmw - I'm just saying that would be the easiest method compared against all the suggestions you posted previously. Or alternatively you could move out of the path that necessarily requires you to cross Arkansas. That state is one of the last to get with the QC program - obviously. Yet even so, Tesla is pushing forward with their QC network, just so their owner/customers can get across their state. Their Memphis supercharger will be one of the next ones to come on line .
     
    #224 hill, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Yep, there are 3 incompatible DC FC standards in the US: Tesla Supercharger, CHAdeMO and the Combo1 flavor of CCS aka J1772 CCS aka SAE Combo.

    Pics of all 6 DC FC plugs in the world at Chevy Spark EV Forum • View topic - DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.. I made a comment about Chevy's dumb move at 2017 Chevy Bolt at CES 2016 | Page 5 | PriusChat.
     
  6. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    However, it's worth noting that CCS deployment will likely accelerate, with the European automakers all getting behind it, Volkswagen being forced to build QC infrastructure as part of the Dieselgate settlement, and GM building CCS-capable cars (in the form of the Bolt).

    Also, Tesla's joined CharIN, the group behind CCS.

    What it boils down to:

    Supercharger: Tesla proprietary, a potential mess of access charges to automakers, dependence on Tesla
    CHAdeMO: Japan's solution, very widespread in Japan... but is used almost like a fast L2 rather than a true L3 there, so most of the chargers aren't suitable for a long range EV there
    GB/T: China's solution, will not penetrate the US
    CCS: The automotive industry's solution (at least outside of Japan), if they build the charger network

    Supercharger's European connector is actually based on the normal Mennekes connector used for L2 charging in Europe, so it's far closer to a standard than the US version. CCS is designed to coexist with both J1772 and Mennekes.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ok, repeat the search for CHAdeMO.

    As for Tesla, I sure found a lot of NEMA 14-50 sockets listed for Tesla at RV parks. As for supercharger stations, three weeks ago it was pretty sparse.

    My BMW-i3 battery range is EPA rated at 72 miles and that matches my experience.

    I could not find a compatible, DC charger in Memphis, Little Rock, or Fort Smith. Perhaps you may have more luck.

    Bob Wilson
     
  8. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    For CCS, you'd need to have some gasoline stops, and your route would basically be, Huntsville->Chattanooga->Nashville->St. Louis->Kansas City->Rogers, AR->wherever you're going in Oklahoma. Much, much longer route.
     
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I am thinking about taking a trip to New York City so my wife can see one of her kids. We may drive to DC to see her other kids and grandkids. Then the return options are coastal, Smokies, or I95.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #229 bwilson4web, Sep 25, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  10. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    IIRC, there actually isn't "L3". but people tend to call it L3 since it's greater than L2. "Fast L2"? Most J1772 EVSEs at home, public and workplaces are just 30 amp EVSEs at 208 to 240 volts. At 208 volts, that's 6.24 kW at max. At 240 volts, that's 7.2 kW, at max.

    Most of the CHAdeMO DC FCs deployed in the US tend to be to 44 to 50 kW, with some 20 kW units here and there.

    There's far more CHAdeMO in the US than SAE Combo/Combo1.
    CHAdeMO Association
    currently says 1912 in the US.
     
  11. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Cooling? Hah! The Leaf and e-Golf + others don't have any for their batteries. :p

    The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered - My Nissan Leaf Forum is a very old MNL thread on an ICE trailer.

    Around the Leaf's 1st birthday, the Leaf Chief Vehicle Engineer Kadota-san + some other Nissan folks up for a meeting at Google. pEEf here (aka Ingineer over there aka Phil) showed up with his turbine engine tow generator. See The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered - Page 9 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Kadota-san is the Japanese guy in the suit w/his arms folded.

    I was at that meeting, years before I had a Leaf.
    I think $100K is too high. See Chevy Spark EV Forum • View topic - installation + ongoing costs for public L2 & DC FC stations for some costs.

    BTW, re: Tesla Superchargers, one can find them via Supercharger | Tesla. Of course, they're currently of no use to anyone other than a Tesla Model S or X with (paid for) Supercharger access. For most on the road in the US, it's included in the cost of the vehicle.

    Side note: Tesla has also given many properties HPWCs or just wall connectors (Tesla — Wall Connector with 24' Cable) which are L2 EVSEs w/up to 80 amp output (depending on the circuit they're on, you configure them via DIP switches) at 208/240 volts for Destination Charging | Tesla. They're actually just J1772 but w/Tesla's proprietary connector.

    Tony Williams plans to do a kickstarter project to let J1772 vehicles use the above. See Ev Charger Level 2 - Quick Charge Power. He already has
    80A home charger, HPWC, High Power Wall Charger, Tesla
    , where he cut off the Tesla connector and replaced it with a J1772 handle.
     
    #231 cwerdna, Sep 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    These are AC charging systems that depend upon the vehicle having an AC-to-DC converter in the car. That is what limits the current, the car. My BMW i3-REx has 7.2 kW converter.

    So I'm looking at AC-to-DC converters and found a 12 kW unit that could shorten the time to 1.5 hrs. A 24 kW unit requires 3-phase and would shorten it to .75 hrs, 45 minutes.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. This is what I see with PlugShare:
    [​IMG]
    These are 'Tesla S' plugs, nothing that would charge my BMW i3-REx. The orange one is CHAdmMO in Decatur, another incompatible charger.
    [​IMG]
     
    #232 bwilson4web, Sep 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  13. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Correct. When charging over AC over J1772, the car's on-board charger can be a bottleneck. My '13 Leaf SV only has a "6.6 kW" OBC so a max of 6.6 kW can come out of the wall. It's about 6 kW max making it to the battery.

    In your vehicle, one of the OBCs is part of the EME. The other I believe is the KLE. (If the KLE blows, your L2 charging speed is usually cut in half...)

    When DC FCing, the car's OBC is bypassed. (My previous leased '13 Leaf SV had a CHAdeMO inlet and I used it ~16 times. My current owned one doesn't.)

    What was was referring to wrt to the JDapter Kickstarter project was an adapter for J1772 equipped cars to use Tesla's proprietary HPWCs/wall connector which are simply J1772 EVSEs but with their proprietary plug. Of course, if one is on a 100 amp circuit w/80 amp output max, a non-Tesla car's OBC will be the bottleneck (i.e. 30 amps for you, about 27.5 amps for me). It does not and cannot enable such vehicles to work on Tesla's Superchargers.

    Tesla HPWCs/wall connectors are what are installed at US Tesla Destination Charging | Tesla. This would simply provide additional (free) L2 charging choices/locations.

    Before Tony's project, I recall seeing reports of someone else having fashioned such a similar adapter and using it.
     
    #233 cwerdna, Sep 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    So this is one approach I'm thinking about:
    • 1.5 Hr - DC 12kW - 240VAC @50A, single phase
    • 0.75 Hr - 2x DC 12kW - 240VAC @50A, single phase
    Source: SmartCharge-12000 - a 12kW Universal Voltage EV Charger - Fully Assembled & Tested

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In theory, two of these could fit on a platform fitted into the 2" receiver of my BMW:

    INPUT
    • 1-2 J1772 - negotiate the highest current
    • 1-2 NEMA 14-50 - set to maximum rate RV park supports
    OUTPUT
    • CCS (or I have no interest)
    • CHAdeMO - for our Leaf friends
    • SuperCharger - for our Tesla friends
    Although it is possible to just stack them in the back, NO! I didn't buy the car to make it into carrier for a charging station. BUT I am OK with hitching a charging station to the back.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #234 bwilson4web, Sep 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    would putting a big battery on a trailer behind my pip be the equivalent?
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The problem with a 'big battery' is its voltage has to be higher than the car battery to get current to flow into the car. Now if the trailer battery could be voltage-matched and put in parallel, well that could work. But it means the batteries need to be identical chemistries.

    Bob Wilson
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    L3 was used for fast DC charging, but I don't know if it ever was 'official'. The official designations are now AC L1, AC L2, DC L1, and DC L2. The DC L2 is what L3 refered too.

    In comparison, Superchargers are in the 90kW to 120kW range. CSS can currently max out at 120kW here, and 170 kW in Europe. While working on a higher standard, CHAdeMo tops at 100kW currently.

    With the arrival of the Bolt, public charger companies are going to spend the little bit extra to have their charger service both CCS and CHAdeMO. They likely already are with the i3 REx and eGolf out. So the number of chargers gap will close even without VW installing chargers as part of their community service.
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    the other trailer battery problem (besides cell matching/thermal management/balancing cells/etc) is that most plugins are manufacturer restricted - ie not built for towing - though many do it anyway despite possible warranty consequences relating primarily to inverter temp's.
    If it's "warranty be damned" - and you absolutely want haul a 'reserve' - some go another route (as cwerdna mentioned) hauling your own genset running it on cleaner propane .... as pEEf setup on his Leaf. It doesn't have to be that exotic - where it can even charge on the fly while driving - & a genset used at a stop would be simpler. The only other decision then - would be how fast do you want to charge. 1,500 watts? 3kW's? 7? 10kW or higher? A nice genset providing grid quality power & accompanying fuel system can get pretty heavy ... hundreds of pounds .... whether it be cells or gen/inverter.
    AFAIK, there my be only one plugin that's purposefully built for hauling a trailer of size - or at least it offers such a non-warranty voiding option;
    [​IMG]
    .
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm thinking along the lines of a trailer/bike rack unit holding one or more of their 12 kW units. Each uses an J1772 connector and draws as much current as the EVSE reports is available. It then negotiates with the car DC interface to provide as much as is available.

    It looks like the CCS issue will be the connector.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the advantage of the battery trailer is no gasoline. i agree it's more complicated and heavier, but hasn't that been our complaint with bev's?