1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Why the BMW i3-REx

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by bwilson4web, May 15, 2016.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I only need a high-speed, DC charger when traveling along my route. So I can only fact-check the car I have:
    • 1.4kW - the 120VAC, 12A, L1, limited by the provided EVSE.
    • 7.2kW - the 240VAC, 30A, L2, limited by built-in charger.
    Here are the opportunities:
    • 1.9kW - using a 120VAC, 20A circuit at 80%. These heavy duty circuits exist if you ask the breaker size.
    • 9.6kW - using a 240VAC, 50A circuit at 80%. These are typically found at J1772 connectors.
    • 19.2kW - using two, 240VAC, 50A circuits at 80%. Use two J1772 connectors often found in pairs at EVSE.
    So what are the time savings for my 18.7 kWh battery charged to 80%, ~15kWh:
    • 10.7 hr vs 7.9 hr @1.9kW
    • 2.1 hr vs 1.5 hr @9.6kW or 0.8 hr @19.2kW (dual)
    In contrast, I just fire up the REx at 75% SOC and refuel and pit stop in 0.25 hr, one third the battery charge time. I only have to find an open gas station or use the spare, 1 gallon can in the frunk.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    1,396
    1,489
    0
    Location:
    Newark, OH, USA
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Also don't forget that Tesla HPWCs speak the J1772 protocol, and adapters now exist to use them with J1772 cars. So, if a business has Tesla HPWCs installed, you can use those to get 16.6 or 19.2 kW depending on voltage.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I appreciate the idea of vampire on Tesla or any unguarded NEMA 5-20 outlet. But that is also 'theft of service' and I prefer open access. If invited or open, I'm OK with it. I just like taking unless invited.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    The bottom line, even with the best 'advertised' CCS, we're talking 80% charge in 0.5 hour for 57 miles. In contrast, 0.25 hour at the gas pump and I'm back on the road at 65 mph with another 78 miles.
    1. If I'm eating a meal, the 0.5 hour to charge the car, no problem. I'll take whatever is contributed with no illusion of achieving great distances.
      1. Level 1 - covers the exits and access.
      2. Level 2 - covers time to find a 65 mph cruising, semi-trailer truck
      3. CSS - covers a tank, potentially doubling the range but then I run at 70-75% SOC down the road. I really need only 25-30% SOC at a meal break. A level 2 but I would not turn down a CSS charge if available.
    2. If I'm refueling, 0.25 hour is not that bad and gets me back on the road.
    Lengthening the time between refueling by drag reduction; the gas tank hack; and other techniques seems to offer the greatest payback for time and capital investment. Although a higher charge rate can be done, there are too many conditionals and unpredictable delays.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #244 bwilson4web, Sep 26, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,122
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Please post Plugshare locations in the US of 120 kW CCS DC FCs. I've never seen nor ever heard of any publicly accessible CHAdeMO nor SAE Combo (aka J1772 CCS aka Combo1) DC FCs that were over 50 kW in the US, let alone significantly above.

    There also aren't any SAE Combo compatible vehicles that can sustain high charge rates for very long. Their batteries are too small.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    From the J1772 specification, pp 39, Table 6.3 - Contact Size and Electrical Ratings:
    contact Function size Current Voltage
    1 1 +DC Level 1 Pwr 3.6 mm 80A 300-600VDC
    2 2 -DC Level 1 Pwr 3.6 mm 80A 300-600VDC
    3 . . .
    4 6 +DC Level 2 Pwr 8.0 mm 200A 300-600VDC
    5 7 -DC Level 2 Pwr 8.0 mm 200A 300-600VDC

    80*600 =48kW
    200*600 =120kW

    IMHO, I see the higher power setting being use for heavy vehicles at ports or work sites. It would also work for delivery trucks in town. We already know electric powered trucks are used in mining:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,214
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Wasn't claiming they were in the field. I mentioned it to show that for long range BEVs, CCS has the advantage. CHAdeMO knows this and is playing catch up in increasing the output of its standard.

    CHAdeMO was developed for Japan, a nation with a great rail network, and average annual car miles is less than the US. The thinking there was that BEVs would only be short range city cars. On top of that, electric service to about half of the residents results in much longer charge times on AC L1 and AC L2 isn't possible. A DC charger putting out 50kW is plenty for a <100 mile BEVs and PHEVs that can't fully charge at home.

    Then Nissan is a big partner of CHAdeMO. The Leaf has no active cooling for the battery. DC charge speeds for it needs to be balanced against heat generation in the battery.

    The Supercharger standard started at a kW rating near were the CHAdeMO one topped out at. This was to get a reasonable charge time for a 200+ mile BEV. A 50kW DC charger is fine for a 100 mileish BEV to get a quick charge to ensure it has juice to get home. For 200 miles, people will soon be asking for faster chargers, and like 5000psi hydrogen stations, the majority of those 50kW chargers are going to get upgraded. When that happens, the ones not tied to a dealer will get both plugs.

    CHAdeMO's number advantage in the US will be short lived.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,604
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    actually, the CHAdeMO's installed in Europe have been 100kW for ~ a year now, iirc - as the Kia Soul is capable of receiving that level of power - since their ev is actively cooled.
    What's surprising to me is that Tesla has been the only manufacturer with enough common sense to build an adapter so that the supercharger enabled cars can utilize the 2nd most popular format, CHAdeMO. Why in the world SAE format folks haven't seen the wisdom in providing something like that, escapes me.
    .
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,214
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    But that isn't going to help gen2 Leafers in the US:p

    With the arrival of the Bolt, public DC chargers are going to be installed with both plugs going forward. The cost of doing so is tiny compared to the total cost of the charger and its installation. 50kW CHAdeMO and CSS ones now in the field will slowly fall out of favor, and will be replaced with faster ones. Mono standard ones will become dual ones at this time.

    Because it wasn't CHAdeMO that supplied the adapter to Tesla. CHAdeMO is a second most common format now. Tesla owners demanded an adapter, and Tesla built one. CCS is still new, and for most Tesla owners, a Supercharger is likely more convenient. When high power DC chargers show up with 100kW CHAdeMO and 120kW(170kW in Europe) CCS, which do you think Tesla owners will want to use?:)

    Tesla has joined CharIn, the organization pushing CCS in Europe. Just checked the CHAdeMO Association site, and Tesla is a member. So Tesla is being neutral, and they do want all BEVs to succeed.
     
  10. DonDNH

    DonDNH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    1,711
    654
    0
    Location:
    Nashua, NH
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four Touring
    How about adding an auxiliary gas tank?

    Also as a thought, I believe every BMW dealership has at least 1 charging station. Have you checked to see if any of these are available to BMW plug-in owners? My local BMW dealer's charging station is available to the public. I haven't see those in your charging location maps.
     
    #250 DonDNH, Sep 27, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    It is a pressurized fuel tank so plumbing is a little tricky.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. DonDNH

    DonDNH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    1,711
    654
    0
    Location:
    Nashua, NH
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Four Touring
    Not so much more difficult that trying to add external batteries. Also note the the edit I did to my post #250 regarding BMW dealers.
     
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,604
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    yes - the CHAdeMO network can be a lifesaver in the barren spots like Arkansas or the Dakotas to Tesla long distance drivers. It might take a clever entrepreneurial type to come along to build /sell adapters for all the others. Believe it or not - there ARE gen1 & 2 Rav4ev's now equipped with DIY'er J plugs - & there aren't near the #'s of them around. Adapters will remain relevant, as long as the network isn't saturated, & adapters can actually serve to keep old EVSE's in operation.
    .
     
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,067
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    They are ChargePoint stations and require the card for a no-cost charge. Two of them are on PlugShare but I understand there are more behind the building and the adjacent Porsche shop has one too.

    I have not used any of them for a lunch/breakfast, yet.

    Bob Wilson
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,214
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Adapters are useful. Leaf collectors are going to need a CCS one in the future for their cars.:D

    In seriousness, CHAdeMO is available in numbers because Nissan has sold a fair number of Leafs across the nation. The only CCS equipped car that sells in any numbers nationwide at this time is the i3; a car priced at least $10k than the Leaf. CHAdeMO has a nice head start over CCS, but it looks like it will be losing the lead.
    • The Bolt will be nationwide available and supports CCS.
    • The Ioniq BEV will use CCS.
    • VW will be building a lot of chargers as part of their cheater diesel punishment, and their plug ins support CCS.
    Outside of Japan, Nissan, and by extension, Mitsubishi and Renault, appears to be the only big supporter of CHAdeMO. The other Japanese companies support it, because it is the standard for Japan, but they have a small plug in presence outside of Japan. I think the Prime will have it in Europe, but it won't North America. The Clarity will likely have it.

    So I don't think CHAdeMO will disappear like betamax and HD DVD. Its sole advantage in having more chargers installed will slowly disappear though. Independent charger companies aren't going to turn away potential customers over the small cost of having a dual format charger. Leaving mono format ones to be only found on dealer lots.

    Back to adapters. Tesla making a CHAdeMO one isn't a statement of endorsement. They are just a customer conscientious company, and I wouldn't be surprised if they already have a CCS adapter ready for production for when the chargers are more numerous. The Supercharger network hasn't stopped expanding either.
     
  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,604
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    agree it"s likely to not take over ... but outside japan - there is also Hyundai/Kia - and although the Soul EV (iirc) may not yet be sold nationwide - its quite popular here in cali, ... a couple of 'em regularly crowding our already overcrowded workplace L2 stations. Hyundai's brand is growing quick. I'm still thinking it's too soon to tell which way things will go. Honda could leapfrog a couple manufacturers - & release a DC charger equipped plug in. Ya never know ... it's still early.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,214
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Yes, the Soul EV is CHAdeMO, but the Ioniq BEV is going to be CCS. It appears Kia will follow Hyundai, "Perhaps with a future switch in mind, Kia has already installed multi-standard DC fast chargers at its dealerships (CHAdeMO + CCS Combo)"
    Hyundai Confirms SAE Combo 100 kW Fast Charging For IONIQ Electric

    The prototype Clarity making the show rounds has CHAdeMO, which I expect it the keep for the US market.
     
  18. silverone

    silverone Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    84
    34
    0
    Location:
    Ohio
    Vehicle:
    2014 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    The businesses that chose to be Tesla Destination chargers had the option to pay more to have a J1772 installed as well as the standard HPWC. It's no surprise that many/most declined.

    That being said, if you bear the price of the adapter, I doubt the business cares what you're charging -- especially with approval of if you're a paying guest in a hotel situation.

    In my area, this is one of the only ways I can consider a BEV(100) when travel is involved. It sounds like your metro area is a little more forward thinking.
     
  19. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,122
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    It was stupid of the CCS supporters to even bother shipping a CCS vehicle in the US.

    GM barely sells in Spark EVs (Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard) that's only available in 3 states, their only vehicle w/optional SAE Combo. GM won't fund its infrastructure:
    GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV. And look at the deception campaign with
    GM and Nissan trade punches over electric car fast charging
    Back then, they had nothing shipping w/CCS in 2012 and they barely have anything shipping with it years later (only the above 3 state vehicle).

    BMW with the i3 ended up having to support THREE DC FC standards: CHAdeMO for the Japanese version (CHAdeMO inlet is on the rear fender where the J1772 inlet would go while the J1772 inlet is in the FRUNK!), Combo1 for the North America and Combo for Europe. Talk about a dumb move.
     
    #259 cwerdna, Sep 28, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
  20. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,122
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    BTW, re: higher powered charging, I spoke to a guy at Motiv Power Systems at the recent Cupertino EVent. They use some weird connector that allows for higher amperage charging that typically what J1772 allows. I think he told me that the signalling and pilot and all is just like J1772 though.

    In Europe, Renault had been shipping the Zoe with 43 kW AC (3-phase?) charging via their Chameleon charger. From what I understand, it uses the motor windings as part of its OBC. But, I heard the 43 kW capability went away: Renault ZOE to Lose 43 kW Rapid Charging in Preference for Improved Home Charging | Transport Evolved.