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Atlantic hurricane season

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jun 5, 2016.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    For all global hurricane basins, there are 'best track' data files extending back to year 1945. Thus it would be possible to calculate ACE over this longer period.

    No one has done that because in pre-satellite era, some storms at sea might have gone undetected. If so, ACE would be underestimated (early), giving a misleading appearance of later increase. No one wishes to mislead.

    Well, almost no one :rolleyes:
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  2. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Please stop the bait-and-switch habit.

    After reading tochatihu's links, I'll give you one more chance to provide links to sources that demonstrate that your sentence above is not 'pure BS'.
     
  3. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    I found this stat really interesting:

    "Prior to Hermine, no hurricanes had entered or developed in the Gulf of Mexico since September 2013, a stretch of 1,080 days. This streak is now the longest on record, dating to the late 1800s."


    weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/hurricane-drought-gulf-of-mexico
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    The Maue (weatherbell) site shows graphs of frequency and ACE. I don't think it is a massive problem to mix them up.

    They both show substantial variation through time. Same thing as saying there are periods of decrease. There are. There are also periods of increase. If one approaches these graphs with an expectation of seeing a decrease, well, that is what one might see. It is a problem, but can be cured.

    Over Maue's entire analyses, there are no significant trends. The very small increase in global ACE is not significant.

    The graph @18 does suggest an increase in major hurricane numbers. But Maue does not present that (global) data file, so I cannot test. Thus, cannot claim. There have been publications on the subject, going further back in time than 1970. Which is probably OK because we'd not likely miss a 'major'.

    +++

    We started here on the North Atlantic itself, not global. N Atl continues its several years of unusually low activity, and I don't think anybody has a handle on that. In this and several other ways ocean dynamics are not well understood. Until that improves hurricane (or climate) modeling will simply remain unsatisfying. To me at least :)

    However, data we have, and analyses we can do, those are fine. If a misinterpretation arises, fix it. No big deal.
     
  5. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    You dont see a decrease from the 90s?
    global_running_ace.png

     
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    It depends on which specific year(s) of the 90s you choose to select, and how much into tea leaf reading imagination you wish to get. Some yes, some no.

    But the graph starts in 1972, not the 1990s. There is certainly no decrease since the 70s and 80s. Only a small increase, which tochatihu has already shown as too small to be significant at this time.

    Setting Big Al aside, I'm also still uncertain about any consensus between hurricanes and AGW.
     
    #26 fuzzy1, Sep 14, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "You don't see?" @25.

    Sure I do, I see them all. With data to spreadsheet it is no trouble to evaluate each one. The numbers are R2 for each segment:

    Maue ACE 2016 Sept subslopes.png

    This is not the only 'pattern' of segments one could choose, and the positions of the line segments are not completely accurate (the R^2 values are the important part). But what should be obvious is that high variation (such as here) will very often yield segments that are significant by regression. I don't like the reds or greens better. Like 'em all.

    What we could do (constructively) is use this amount of variation to determine how many years of data would be required to detect a significant trend. That is a different formula, and not for today. But that itself depends on the variation remaining constant in the future. Might, might not eh?

    In a way it resembles arguing no significant +T (which only works if you start in 1998).
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    There is a new mission planned to measure global rain fall and that will be a better metric than cloud cover and storms.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Do you see any corelation between the ACE or frequency data and a 30% iincrease in CO2?
    If not you,then theory is pure bs.Mr science guy.

     
  10. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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  11. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    BTW here's a tidbit of info you won't read in your learned science books. Sunspots and their effect on the. Earth's magnetic field are what initiate tropical storms which may develop into hurricanes.
    With low sunspot numbers the hurricane drought should continue for the next 30 years.
    Also the AMO has cooled sea surface temps in the Atlantic .
    [/QUOTE]
    BTW
     
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    looks like julia might be petering out.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Cold fronts tend to do that.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Much effort has been put into N Atl hurricane records. HURDAT starts in 1851, and it may have missed some storms in early times. Other hurricane basins are more sketchy in early times; besides this is a N Atl thread.

    Link here:
    Hurricane Research Division Data Policy
    “We ask that a proper acknowledgement to the "NOAA Hurricane Research Division of AOML" accompany the use of these data in any publications or presentations”

    That dataset, with each storm every 6 hours, is too detailed for this purpose. Wunderground has helpfully simplified it to hurricanes per year:
    Hurricane Archive | Weather Underground

    Sunspot numbers per year data as mentioned previously. To ‘stack the deck’ favorably I choose 11-year smoothing. Here is the graph:

    N ATL hurr SSN 100 yr smooth.jpg

    One can see periods when they vary together and others oppositely. If you wanted low sunspot numbers to cause few hurricanes, you would only look at the former. Maue’s global hurricane frequency does not consistently follow SSN either, but it is rather short for such a purpose.
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    SNN -> SSN in the title. How embarrassing.

    BTW there have been publications discussing an increase in N Atl hurricane frequency since 1851. Annual data do have a positive regression, but R^2 - 0.049. Which ain't much.
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO) is well worth considering in this context. By those who defined it, it is considered to be driven up by greenhouse gases, down by aerosols, and with a 65-70 yr physical ocean oscillation. The last of course is a very common theme :)

    As AMO is derived from sea-surface temperatures, it is not appropriate to say "AMO has cooled sea surface temps". But we need not dwell on that :)

    Since 1856, annual AMO values relate a bit better to N Atl hurricane frequency (R^2 = 0.19). For the last full year of data (2015) AMO was less than its highest value (in 2010) but still high compared to all years since 1856.

    There is not yet a good way to predict next year's (next decade's) AMO. I'd not doubt that 'iceagenow' (etc.) expect it to decrease substantially. But neither am I compelled to agree.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    If anyone cares to explore AMO, data are here:

    ESRL : PSD : Download Climate Timeseries: AMO SST

    But you gotta keep your wits about you. Records are presented as 'detrended' and 'not detrended'. What does this mean? Sea-surface termperatures have increased throughout the period of record. Detrended removes that secular trend.

    CO2 has also increased since 1856. So for example. if you compare [CO2] to detrended AMO, you will get diddly.

    This, for example, is detrended:
    File:Amo timeseries 1856-present.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
    #38 tochatihu, Sep 16, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Tropical storm Karl (mid Atlantic) has a chance of further strengthening, and of hitting US coast. Not as a 'major' though. More Hermine-sized.
     
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Hurricane Matthew (as a 1 or 2) has a lock on Cuba. Whether it can get interestingly close to Florida (etc. north) depends on how sharp a right-hand turn it can make. Recurving is a normal hurricane thing, but right-angle turns are not. An interesting test for meso-scale models.

    Tropical Cyclone Intensity and Track Forecasts
     
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