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Fog of war

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by jared2, Jun 13, 2006.

  1. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    What really happened on that Gaza beach? Was it Israel shells or Hamas mines that killed those people trying to enjoy a day on the beach? Truth is we don't know. The first casualty of war is always the truth. Each side in a war spends a lot of money on propoganda and disinformation. After all, the motto of the mossad is "By deception we make war". If you support Israel, you believe one version of "truth"; support the Palestianians and you believe another version. As Wilde said, "the truth is rarely pure and never simple". My advice is to take everything you read in the media (or in chat rooms) with a very large grain of salt. We just don't know, really.
     
    #1 jared2, Jun 13, 2006
  2. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 13 2006, 11:40 AM) [snapback]270508[/snapback]</div>
    *caution*

    arguably an oxymoron...

    :ph34r:
     
    #2 Mystery Squid, Jun 13, 2006
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Think of our children graduating from high school this year. They've known nothing but war. Their first exposure to politics would have been the 9/11 attacks. They were too young to understand the "good old days" from the Clinton administration. History is very different from their perspective.

    Right when they get to feel their first opportunity for independence, the reality of ever-climbing gas prices becomes all too real. Having witnessed the indulgence of the monster-size gas-guzzling SUV, looking forward to getting one of their own, but then not being able to must be making one heck of an impression.

    Fortunately, at the very same time they are getting to see the birth of Camry-Hybrid and the overwhelming success of Prius. They have no memory of the 80's, when the small & weak cars began to dominate due to pure necessity. This current oil/gas supply problem offers a new hope... which they'll readily embrace. Remember, this is the generation that grew up always having the internet available. Life without the expectation of new technology to help improve is something they simply cannot relate too. They have no apprehensions. The desire to upgrade is in their nature.

    And with the threat of danger just around the corner, being proactive should be no big deal. Making excuses for not taking action is not something they can relate to, having grown up in a world that requires it.
     
    #3 john1701a, Jun 13, 2006
  4. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jun 13 2006, 12:01 PM) [snapback]270524[/snapback]</div>
    More a common figure of speech, albeit shop-worn.
     
    #4 jared2, Jun 13, 2006
  5. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jun 13 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]270527[/snapback]</div>
    I have to say, this is a very interesting perspective... Particularly given my cousin is graduating from high school on Sunday...


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 13 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]270531[/snapback]</div>
    I disagree, I've never heard anyone use "large" grain of salt. There's an inherent understanding grains of salt are very small...
     
    #5 Mystery Squid, Jun 13, 2006
  6. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    What is this article's relevance to the fog of war? Seems to be about the need for more fuel effecient vehicles. Squid, you're slipping :(
     
    #6 jared2, Jun 13, 2006
  7. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    Human Rights Watch says no doubt Israel Shell responsible for beach deaths.

    See Guardian story:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1796691,00.html

    "I disagree, I've never heard anyone use "large" grain of salt. There's an inherent understanding grains of salt are very small..."

    See link:

    http://www.mnforum.org/pipermail/mpls/2002...ary/009809.html

    I quote from the first paragraph:

    "Regarding anything coming out of the Minneapolis
    library board or library staff, I take with a large
    grain of salt."

    MS. you really need to read more :)

    Who would you believe, an independent human right group that monitors human rights abuses in every country in the world, or the Israel government, that was extremely embarrased by the incident?

    Child caught with hand in cookie jar: "I never took the cookies, honest!" :p
     
    #7 jared2, Jun 13, 2006
  8. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 13 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]270698[/snapback]</div>
    Sure jared, ok, I too can go up online and get articles with phrases I've never heard before, or rarely used... Particularly after I've been exposed to them... :rolleyes:

    :lol:
     
    #8 Mystery Squid, Jun 13, 2006
  9. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    Squid, I seriously suggest you change your name to eel, as in "slippery as".
    You play so loose and fast with the truth I am amazed, and even, dare I say it, impressed. Have you every considered a career with the propaganda office of a major country? I swear you have the talent for it. First you said there was no such phrase as "a large grain of salt" and then when I easily find an example, you say, oh, I could do that too. I had a friend once who was absolutely certain that the Noble prizes were awarded in Switzerland. I would nominate you for the Noble prize in disinformation in a second. You have the talent to go far.
     
    #9 jared2, Jun 13, 2006
  10. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 13 2006, 04:47 PM) [snapback]270715[/snapback]</div>


    Know what this is?

    [​IMG]


    Well put it down 'cause you've been smoking it a bit too much!
     
    #10 Mystery Squid, Jun 13, 2006
  11. smurf041

    smurf041 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 13 2006, 04:32 PM) [snapback]270698[/snapback]</div>
    Human rights groups have a great historical reputation, i.e.International Red Cross ignoring the Holocaust. If you think that Human Rights Watch is not a politically motivated organization, then you are very naive.

    Smurf
     
    #11 smurf041, Jun 13, 2006
  12. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    "Human rights groups have a great historical reputation, i.e.International Red Cross ignoring the Holocaust. If you think that Human Rights Watch is not a politically motivated organization, then you are very naive."

    Human Rights Watch is a well-respected group throughout the world. It is likely to be less biased in this matter than the Israeli government. Would you ask a tobacco company for their opinion on the health effects of smoking?
     
    #12 jared2, Jun 15, 2006
  13. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 13 2006, 11:40 AM) [snapback]270508[/snapback]</div>
    We do know what happened. We have a complete failure of those responsible to investigate. Where is the official Hamas report? Where is the huge blast crater one would expect with a 155mm artillery shell. You saw the picture yourself on the front page of the NY Times - NO BLAST Crater. Why were the bodies so close to each other. With a 155mm shell they would have been blown much further apart. And they have the bodies. Show us the shrapnel from the 155mm artillery shell - easy to do if it caused those deaths. Release the autopsy findings - easy way to discern a mine explosion vs. an 155mm artillery shell blast.

    Fact is Israel fired 6 artillery shells in RESPONSE to another Kassam rocket attack on innocent Israeli civilians from territory Israel gave to the Palistinean Authority with NO strings attached and they have launched nearly 1000 Kassams at Israel as a thank you. The first shell was unaccounted for but was fired first 5 minutes before the deaths occured. The others are all accounted for as to time and impact location.

    Israel has published its report on it - where is the Hamas version?
     
    #13 dbermanmd, Jun 15, 2006
  14. jared2

    jared2 New Member

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    Places to go for unbiased information:

    On contraception: The Catholic Church
    On alcoholism: Coors
    On smoking: RJ Reynolds
    On war crimes: [country involved] ministry of information
    On oil profits: Exxon
    On war profiteering: Haliburton or Kellog Brown Root
    On pharmaceutical profits: Merck

    Makes sense to me :)
     
    #14 jared2, Jun 15, 2006
  15. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Jun 15 2006, 02:42 PM) [snapback]271747[/snapback]</div>
    Kinda stays in line with your operating system of believing dictatorships and terrorists vs. open democracies. I like your conviction to cause - even though it is opposite of mine. The nice thing about the Israeli investigation is that YOU CAN EVEN READ AND REVIEW IT AND COME TO YOUR OWN CONCLUSION ABOUT THEIR FINDINGS.

    Still waiting for you to cite the Hamas's official investigation into this event.. Makes no difference to you because your mind is made up.

    AND, why not more than a few hours ago did....

    Hamas agree to reinstate a cease-fire with Israel IF Israel is responsible for those deaths????

    Answer that one please... Not that I am expecting you too
     
    #15 dbermanmd, Jun 15, 2006
  16. Mirza

    Mirza New Member

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    Dberman, you're basically repeating the same sentiment that jared2 is. As far as the situation goes... Hamas should reinstate it... but I am wondering... how far can an artillery shell go in 5 minutes? You got a link to the report on hand?
     
    #16 Mirza, Jun 15, 2006
  17. Mirza

    Mirza New Member

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    #17 Mirza, Jun 15, 2006
  18. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jun 15 2006, 08:52 AM) [snapback]271661[/snapback]</div>
    This is what Israel's leading newspaper had to say in its lead editorial on June 15, 2006:
     
    #18 IsrAmeriPrius, Jun 15, 2006
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