1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Hyundai Hybrids and EVs

Discussion in 'Hyundai/Kia/Genesis Hybrids and EVs' started by Jan Treur, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    240
    168
    0
    Location:
    Heiloo, Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Now the Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid and EV are on the road in several countries since a few months, and soon in the US as well, I think it can be useful to have a specific thread about them here.

    I myself have the Ioniq EV since 4 weeks, and I am very happy with it. In my environment (with good roads and no hills, but from time to time a lot of wind), the range during this wintertime with temperatures around or below the freezing point is more than I expected. It is even often more than the EPA number of 124 mile (200 km), and certainly more than enough for what I need. In fact I can always just charge it at home from my solar panels and come back without any need for charging elsewhere. If ever I would like to go for longer distances it has very good fast charging facilities, allowing charging power levels up to 70 kW.

    Two features I like a lot are the heat pump based heating system and the active Lane Keeping Assistance System. When you have the car plugged in, by preheating you can enter a nicely warm car with unfrozen windows when you leave. Even if you do not preheat the car, in only one or two minutes the car can get warm. The heating system can show very high heating power levels up to 7 kW for a short period of a few minutes, what surprised me. If you do not preheat the car from the wall, this initial heating can cost you about 4 km or 2.5 mile of your range.

    The Lane Keeping Assistance System (LKAS) helps you to do the steering in a cooperative interactive way (that is sometimes called mixed initiative interaction). It works like you do the steering together with another person. Most owners like that, but some don't; they can simply set the LKAS system in a less active mode so that you get warnings but no steering initiatives or corrections. You can combine it with Smart Cruise Control, then it may seem similar to Tesla's Autopilot. Indeed, the Ioniq can drive by itself when there are visible lines. However, the philosophy here is different: not autonomous driving but mixed initiative driving. The car wants you to participate, otherwise after a while it will start to complain by beeping and a bit later it will refuse further cooperation.

    I have also considered other BEV options such as the Leaf, the Bolt/Ampera-e, the BMW i3, the e-Golf and the Zoe. But two main reasons why they were no serious options were that they are substantially smaller, so that I cannot take my mountainbike with me, and the Ioniq EV's efficiency is much higher (10% and more higher), as can be seen, for example, on this EPA list. It also helped that the price was very reasonable compared to the other options (in fact lower than for almost all of them).
     
    #1 Jan Treur, Feb 12, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
    thatoneraccoon, giora and San_Carlos_Jeff like this.
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    First off, I want to thank you for starting this thread in the right forum. You weren't the original poster but when someone starts a thread in the wrong forum advocating another 'product', well the usual diagnosis is 'troll.' I appreciate you enjoy your ride and am not posting here to do anything but share facts and data. Everyone has a right to a different set of requirements and I am not posting for anything but to share.
    . . .
    I don't know if you can access www.fueleconomy.gov but it is our 'go to' web site to compare vehicles:
    metric 2017 Ioniq 2013 PiP 2017 Prime 2003 Prius
    1 passenger ft{3} 96 94 91 89
    2 luggage ft{3} 27 22 20 12
    3 classification large cars midsize cars midsize cars compact
    4 EV range n/a 11 mi 25 mi n/a
    5 gas MPG 55 50 54 48 (*)

    Yes, the Ioniq is larger than either of the Toyota plug-ins. All of them are larger than our 2003 Prius which I was getting 52 MPG year round by efficient driving. But the Ioniq and 2003 Prius also have to burn gas including the warm-up penalty on every trip.

    Running the gas engine is especially painful on each cold-start when the engine is least efficient and the car has to accelerate, largest load. For example, the first 3-5 miles in our Gen-1 and Gen-3 Prius were typically below 40 MPG especially in bad weather. Perhaps you might record the warm-up penalty on your next cold-start. Just setup a camera to record a trip meter on the first drive of the day and report the fuel consumed for each kilometer. Share the raw data and we'll be happy to do the math.

    In contrast, both the PiP (or my understanding) and Prime are able to EV to speed and then let the gas engine warm-up occur unloaded while going down the road. Skipping the short range, cold-start, gas problem is where the Toyota plug-in do so well.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #2 bwilson4web, Feb 13, 2017
    thatoneraccoon likes this.
  3. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    240
    168
    0
    Location:
    Heiloo, Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The tables below give some insight in how the Ioniq Electric's range varies with the average speed and the temperature. It displays real world experiences reported in the past months, under varying conditions from different countries from South Korea to the UK and Norway and some other European countries. The first table is based on km and km/h, the second on miles and miles/h.

    The same table with clickable entries referring to the source of the number can be found here, post #93.

    [​IMG]

    ----------
     
    #3 Jan Treur, Feb 13, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  4. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    240
    168
    0
    Location:
    Heiloo, Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    To collect such reported experiences concerning range and efficiency numbers I created this Google Sheet. You can find more numbers there, and you can also add your own experiences.
     
    #4 Jan Treur, Feb 13, 2017
  5. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2015
    1,946
    1,785
    0
    Location:
    Southern MN
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    II
    Great! Thanks for posting. Now if we can only get that sub-forum...
     
    #5 farmecologist, Feb 13, 2017
  6. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    936
    1,097
    0
    Location:
    Duluth, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    The Hyundai U.S. website only shows LDW not LKA for the Ioniq. In fact from the European videos that I have seen it looks like Ioniq actually has LCA, which would be really nice, but for some reason, legal or whatever, the trend in the U.S. for the moment seems to be to avoid LCA (except Tesla and maybe a few others). For example Toyota in Gen 4 and Prime went in the opposite direction and switched to a less aggressive LKA than Gen 3 had.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    #6 Since2002, Feb 13, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  7. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    936
    1,097
    0
    Location:
    Duluth, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Well I guess you can't edit using a phone. I will change it to LKA in two hours when my flight lands. The phone spell check changed LKA to LOL. I didn't realize my phone has a sense of humor
     
    #7 Since2002, Feb 13, 2017
    San_Carlos_Jeff likes this.
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,700
    48,946
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    i like the idea that hyundai is going larger. i thnk toyota and others need to take this to heart, as it is a good way to capture more gas drivers.
     
    #8 bisco, Feb 13, 2017
    San_Carlos_Jeff likes this.
  9. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    240
    168
    0
    Location:
    Heiloo, Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    #9 Jan Treur, Feb 14, 2017
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,123
    15,389
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Ordinarily I am skeptical of awards that like mushrooms suddenly show up without history or some self-selected jury. Although the timing is off and I'd not heard of this group before, they did give this ranking: Greenest | Greener Cars

    Make and model Specifications Emission standard a MPG city MPG hwy Green Score
    1 Hyundai Ioniq Electric b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 4.67 3.79 64
    2 BMW i3 (60Ah) b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 4.08 3.3 64
    3 Toyota Prius Eco 1.8L 4; auto Tier 3 Bin 30 / LEV-III SULEV30/PZEV 58 53 62
    4 Fiat 500E b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 3.59 3.07 62
    5 Nissan Leaf b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 3.67 3 60
    6 Chevrolet Bolt b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 3.78 3.27 59
    7 Kia Soul Electric b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 3.55 2.73 59
    8 Toyota Prius Prime c Electric (Li-ion bat.) / 1.8L 4; auto LEV-III SULEV30 4.26 / 55 3.58 / 53 59
    9 Toyota Prius C 1.5L 4; auto LEV-III SULEV30 48 43 58
    10 Ford Focus Electric b Electric (Li-ion bat.) Tier 3 Bin 0 / LEV III ZEV 3.56 2.84 58
    11 Honda Accord Hybrid 2.0L 4; auto Tier 3 Bin 30 / LEV-III SULEV30/PZEV 49 47 58
    12 Kia Niro FE 1.6L 4; auto LEV-III SULEV30 52 49 58

    Unlike some, this group appears to have an empirical basis used to generate their score: How We Determine Ratings | Greener Cars

    How We Rate the Vehicles
    We analyze automakers' test results for fuel economy and emissions as reported to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board, along with other specifications reported by automakers. We estimate pollution from vehicle manufacturing, from the production and distribution of fuel and from vehicle tailpipes. We count air pollution, such as fine particles, nitrogen oxides, hydrocarbons and other pollutants according to the health problems caused by each pollutant. We then factor in greenhouse gases (such as carbon dioxide) and combine the emissions estimates into a Green Score that runs on a scale from 0 to 100. The top vehicle this year scores a 64, the average is 41 and the worst gas-guzzlers score a 21. ​

    I am not familiar with this group. They appear to be a DC based, 'Think Tank', who generate revenue by making reports and hosting conferences. Hummmm, maybe we can suggest they host 'Hybridfest II'?

    Bob Wilson
     
    #10 bwilson4web, Feb 15, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,721
    11,318
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The Electric MSRAP sans delivery is under $30k. I was hoping for lower, but it beats the Leaf on price and range. With the federal tax credit, it is down to the hybrid's entry price.
    Surprised you've missed them; they have been mentioned before, mainly on why Tesla's aren't green. For plug ins theyuse the national grid average that is likely out of date.
     
    #11 Trollbait, Feb 15, 2017
  12. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    240
    168
    0
    Location:
    Heiloo, Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    This picture shows the differences in efficiency of other BEV cars in comparison to the Ioniq EV.

    [​IMG]
     
    #12 Jan Treur, Feb 23, 2017
  13. Felt

    Felt Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    1,624
    603
    0
    Location:
    Mountain West
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Impressive Jan Treur -
    Am I the only one that does not understand it?
     
    #13 Felt, Feb 23, 2017
  14. Starship_Enterprius

    Starship_Enterprius Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2014
    312
    152
    0
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Premium
    I'm totally dumb when it comes to EVs as I haven't crossed that bridge yet.

    But I'm thinking wouldn't it be fairer to wait until the Ioniq EV with the bigger heavier battery (with the same range as the other cars) to start comparing efficiencies?
     
    #14 Starship_Enterprius, Feb 24, 2017
  15. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    936
    1,097
    0
    Location:
    Duluth, GA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I think that is part of the point that if you are willing to accept lower range you get greater efficiency. So the chart is still fair in that regards, since not everyone needs the range of Bolt and Model S. But yes it will be interesting to see how the longer range Ioniq compares to not only other EV's but also to the current Ioniq.
     
    #15 Since2002, Feb 24, 2017
    Starship_Enterprius likes this.
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,700
    48,946
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    we have discussed this in another thread. but there aren't enough choices to put efficiency into the equation presently.
    when we have more choices, it's a no brainer.
     
    #16 bisco, Feb 24, 2017
    farmecologist likes this.
  17. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2014
    240
    168
    0
    Location:
    Heiloo, Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Range as needed is not just one uniform number. Each type of driving pattern asks for a different range. I can imagine for the US in general more range is needed than in a small country like the Netherlands. But also within one country different persons need different ranges, depending on their situation. It may also depend on whether you only have one car or more than one. For each situation you have to satisfy your needed range first; my own situation is already fulfilled by what is offered now. And indeed, after that you can take efficiency into account. Toyota started to be competitive on efficiency with the Prius longer ago. It is good to have more competition on that for the future, also for fully EV cars.
     
    #17 Jan Treur, Feb 25, 2017
    Since2002 likes this.
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)