1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Is a hybrid worth it?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Somechic, Jun 20, 2006.

  1. Somechic

    Somechic Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    228
    1
    0
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    There is so much about this article that bothers me. I am writing a letter to the auther and copying the Business Page Editor.


    http://www.nj.com/search/index.ssf?/base/b...ll=1&thispage=1

    Is this car worth it?

    Tuesday, June 20, 2006
    BY JOSEPH R. PERONE
    Star-Ledger Staff

    Anyone who wants to buy a hybrid car should pull out a calculator before stepping on the accelerator.

    Hybrids, which combine an electric motor with an internal combustion engine, might sound like a good idea to consumers as gas prices stubbornly hover near $3 a gallon.
    About 56 percent of online shoppers said they would seriously consider buying a hybrid, according to a survey by Autobytel, the car-shopping Web site.

    But they aren't for everybody. Drivers with long commutes won't see much of a benefit, experts say.

    Hybrids get good mileage in cities, "where they can rely more on electric power, than on free-flowing highways that typically require gas power for higher speeds," according to Brian Chee, automotive editor for Autobytel.com.

    For example, a Ford Escape Hybrid gets between 31 and 36 miles per gallon, compared with a standard Escape at 22 to 26 mpg, according to Jason Siegel, founder of GreenHybrid.com, an automotive Web site. The Toyota Prius gets between 51 and 60 mpg, he said.

    But some experts question the mileage numbers.

    "While there's no question that the Toyota, Honda and Ford hybrids are more fuel efficient than their conventionally powered equivalents, the difference is nowhere near as great as the Environmental Protection Agency numbers suggest," said automotive expert Lauren Fix, who calls herself "The Car Coach."

    They aren't cheap, either. For example, a Toyota Prius can cost several thousand dollars more than a comparable gas-powered car, which means an average driver might have to own it between four and six years to make it pay, according to Chee.

    Still, the numbers can be compelling for people who drive in stop-and-go traffic.

    For example, a Prius saves, on average, around 350 gallons of gas each year compared with a mid-sized car, according to Chee. That's roughly $1,100 a year, which would increase to $1,400 if gas sells for $4 a gallon this summer, he said.

    And there are other advantages to owning a hybrid, according to James Bell, publisher of IntelliChoice.com, an automotive Web site.

    They include "low maintenance and operating costs, extended hybrid component warranties, and most importantly, the incredibly low rate of depreciation, or very high resale value," Bell said. "The hybrid models currently on sale are proving to be 'all-stars' on these important fronts."

    There are also tax benefits to owning a hybrid that can range from $3,150 for a Prius to $1,550 for a Lexus GS 450H, according to the Internal Revenue Service.

    Honda announced last month it will come out with a less-costly gasoline-electric hybrid car aimed at families by 2009. The company said it would be cheaper than its existing Civic hybrid, which has a sticker price around $23,000 and gets 47 miles per gallon.

    Is a hybrid right for you? Here are some examples to help you choose:The payback for buying a hybrid can be years down the road because of the initial cost, according to Bill Howard, a Westfield resident and editor of the Technoride Web site of PC Magazine. Consumers should compare the model they are buying with a comparable standard car, determine the premium over that car and the annual fuel cost, he said. As gas prices go up, a hybrid can make more sense. Here are two examples that show the second hybrid is the better deal:

    Hybrid No. 1
    Hybrid cost over standard car: $3,000
    Miles per gallon: 40
    Standard car: 30
    Gas cost: $3 a gallon
    Mileage: 12,000 miles a year
    Gallons used: 300
    Savings: $300
    Payback time: 10 years

    Hybrid No. 2
    Hybrid cost over standard car: $2,000
    Miles per gallon: 45
    Standard car: 25
    Gas cost: $4 a gallon
    Savings: $852
    Payback time: 2.3 years

    The Internal Revenue Service allows many hybrid buyers to take a tax credit for buying an alternative motor vehicle. However, the credit begins to phase out if a manufacturer sells more than 60,000 hybrid models. Check www.irs.gov/newsroom for more information. Here are some examples of how hybrid tax savings can vary:

    Model Tax credit
    2006 Ford Escape Hybrid FWD $2,600
    2006 Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD 1,950
    2006 Toyota Prius 3,150
    2006 Honda Civic Hybrid 2,100
    2006 Honda Insight 1,450
    2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid 2,600
    2007 Lexus GS 450h 1,550

    Consumers can save money on standard cars that get good mileage and don't cost as much as a hybrid, according to Cars.com Senior Editor Joe Wiesenfelder. Here are some models, most of which are not hybrids, ranked by their combined lifetime fuel and sticker expenses. Costs are based on owning the car eight years and driving 15,000 miles a year with fuel at $2.92 a gallon:
    Model City/hwy mpg Sticker plus lifetime fuel cost

    Toyota Yaris (Manual) 34/40 $20,344
    Kia Rio (Manual) 32/35 $21,276
    Hyundai Accent (Manual) 32/35 $22,961
    Scion xA (Manual) 32/37 $23,010
    Honda Fit (Manual) 33/38 $23,790
    Toyota Corolla (Manual) 32/41 $23,824
    Scion xA (Automatic) 31/38 $23,840
    Kia Rio (Automatic) 29/38 $24,097
    Honda Insight Hybrid 60/66 $24,918
    Hyundai Accent (Automatic) 28/36 $24,933

    SOURCES: Bill Howard, Cars.com, IRS, autobytel -NT
     
  2. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    14,816
    2,498
    66
    Location:
    Far-North Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Fallacy number 1: There is no comparable car!
     
  3. brandon

    brandon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    771
    9
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan, KS
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Ya know, for the most part, this article has just regurgitated information (be it fact or fiction) printed in other articles.
     
  4. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,232
    1,563
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Fallacy number two: Clean air is free and limitless, so there's no point considering the reduced emissions of a hybrid.
     
  5. Ed Vatza

    Ed Vatza New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2006
    98
    0
    0
    Location:
    Lehigh Valley PA
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Somechic @ Jun 20 2006, 05:28 PM) [snapback]274275[/snapback]</div>
    Fallacy #2 ok make that #3 - I filled the tank this morning and did a 180 mile round trip all highway - same highways both ways so uphills and downhills washed. The Prius got 56 mpg on the highways. Most of my driving was between 55 mph and 70 mph.
     
  6. AnOldHouse

    AnOldHouse Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    677
    1
    0
    Location:
    Middlesex County, Connecticut
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Somechic @ Jun 20 2006, 05:28 PM) [snapback]274275[/snapback]</div>
    How many "drivers with long commutes" only drive 12,000 miles per year?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Jun 20 2006, 05:43 PM) [snapback]274287[/snapback]</div>
    And it really doesn't matter if reducing petroleum demand is a national security issue.
     
  7. Maytrix

    Maytrix Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    742
    7
    0
    Location:
    Marlborough, Mass
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Somechic @ Jun 20 2006, 05:28 PM) [snapback]274275[/snapback]</div>
    I love how writers leave out information in one section because it helps prove their point and then include it in another. Neither of the examples above include the tax credit. This obviously changes the payback. Nor does it include the low maintenance of brakes..etc, which also reduces the payback.

    Furthermore, while there are plenty of people that will compare the gas to the hybrid model (my brother in law bought a gas only civic over the hybrid due to cost), there are also plenty of people that just compare it to another vehicle they'd buy. I owned a Jeep and was looking to replace it with something more suited to driving 30k miles a year. A replacement Jeep would have run me $30k, so I was prepared to spend that. Prius fit in my plans just fine. I didn't even compare it to another mid sized car. What the hell would I compare it to? Certainly nothing else would hold all the crap I've managed to squeeze into my Prius.

    What it really comes down to is: Do you want an excuse to my a hybrid or an excuse not to? Anyone can come up with either and justify their actions.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AnOldHouse @ Jun 20 2006, 05:51 PM) [snapback]274294[/snapback]</div>
    Haha.. good point on the long commutes. And even more important - how is a long commute not helpful with a hybrid? I actually get better mileage typically on the highway then in city driving.

    EDIT - Whoa.. that's weird. I replied to the second quote above completely separetely. Is it a new feature that they both get lumped together?
     
  8. brandon

    brandon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    771
    9
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan, KS
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Maytrix @ Jun 20 2006, 04:54 PM) [snapback]274296[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, I noticed that, too, after the last major upgrade. Probably the software trying to be smarter than the poster.
     
  9. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    1,748
    1
    0
    Location:
    New Brunswick, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Jun 20 2006, 05:36 PM) [snapback]274277[/snapback]</div>
    Elantra GT or Base Jetta would do as comparisons. Toyota doesn't sell it here, but there is a non-hybrid car that shares the same platform as the Prius overseas.
     
  10. Salsawonder

    Salsawonder New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    1,897
    47
    0
    Location:
    La Mesa California
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I know someone who snubs Prius and Toyotas in general. After putting over $7000 into her Blazer for the last 2 1/2 years she is getting a Nissan Maxima, all done up for $29000! The car only seats 4 and has not got the cargo room of the Prius. Haven't checked yet but I'm pretty sure that it does not have any great safety advantage over the Prius.

    My Prius cost me $2000 less and I would have liked leather but I don't need heated seats in California. My car will have limited maintenance and will require very little gas. I can haul 5 and I can put a remarkable amount of stuff in the back.

    The ongoing need to put Hybrids (and the Prius specifically) down continues to befuddle my mind. Despite the bad press that they continue to recieve, Toyota still has waiting lists for them. :p
     
  11. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,232
    1,563
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Fallacy number 4: A car is an investment, not a depreciable asset.

    Fallacy number 5: A car is an extension of your personality, not a form of transportation.
     
  12. Don-RI

    Don-RI Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2004
    153
    1
    0
    Location:
    Cumberland, RI
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Let's see the writer do the same article & calculations to find out if buying that HEMI is worth it...
     
  13. rudiger

    rudiger Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2006
    696
    45
    0
    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Jun 20 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]274309[/snapback]</div>
    The Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe (i.e., the Corolla 'station wagon') is probably the closest to compare with the Prius in the US.

    A Matrix comparable to my #3 Prius has an MSRP of $19,290. But the invoice on the Matrix XR is $17,444 (which is probably closer to the actual selling price).

    MSRP of my '06 Prius was $23,459 (less $3150 = $20,309), making the net price of the Prius roughly $3,000 more than the Matrix.

    Gas mileage on a Matrix automatic is 28/34. So far, my Prius is averaging around 44 mpg, overall, with no special change in driving style to maximize fuel economy.

    If not for the $3150 federal tax credit and the possibility that gas prices will continue to increase towards the $4/gallon mark within the next year or two, I would have strongly considered a Matrix/Vibe instead of a Prius. A Prius is worth an additional $3000 over a comparable, non-hybrid Matrix. It's not worth an additional $6150.
     
  14. asills

    asills Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    31
    0
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 20 2006, 06:59 PM) [snapback]274399[/snapback]</div>
    Hey all, short time lurker, first time poster.

    I just got rid of my Mazda6 and was actually considering a G35 as a replacement when I got a Prius. I definitely agree that a simple MPG to MPG comparison with the "it'll take x years to get your money back" really misses the point.

    It's really not worth debating the article on its merits since it doesn't have many, but for people who want an increased gas mileage plus care about the environment and don't want to wait for an alternative fuel vehicle, we don't have any other choices.

    And similar to another poster, I was already prepared for a 35K car (G35 with a few options) so in my mind I saved quite a few thousand dollars just by getting a Prius :)
     
  15. j24816

    j24816 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2006
    141
    0
    0
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Somechic @ Jun 20 2006, 02:28 PM) [snapback]274275[/snapback]</div>
    I really like this; Mr. Howard writes about computers for a living, and now becomes a quoteable car expert?

    PC Magazine has decided they are qualified to review cars?
     
  16. AnOldHouse

    AnOldHouse Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    677
    1
    0
    Location:
    Middlesex County, Connecticut
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brandon @ Jun 20 2006, 06:04 PM) [snapback]274308[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, it's usually just fine, but sometimes I'd like to see the replies split. It also doesn't happen every time, even if you post twice in a row.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rudiger @ Jun 20 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]274399[/snapback]</div>
    It significantly depends on how many miles you do. The $6150 would still be worth it for my case.
     
  17. larkinmj

    larkinmj New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2006
    1,996
    5
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(j24816 @ Jun 20 2006, 10:02 PM) [snapback]274453[/snapback]</div>
    I can't wait to read the "Car Talk" guys' review of Windows Vista! :lol:
     
  18. DaveOrgans

    DaveOrgans New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2006
    75
    3
    0
    While great gas milage and low emissions are definite pluses, for me, the clincher was the technology. I like to support a company that is still doing basic research. We don't do much of it here in the US anymore. Which American car company was willing to gamble over $1,000,000,000.00 (yep, thats a billion dolars, with a 'B') on research into a promissing but untested technology that might help us get over petroleum shortages? And Toyota and Honda are still doing it with fuel cell research, etc.

    The technology in the Prius is intelligent, effective and elegant. What other vehicle has a 'transmission' with only 21 moving parts and no slip elements (belts, clutches, torque converters, etc.) all of which lose energy? What other vehicle recovers the energy that you would otherwise lose every time you step on the brakes? According to Consumers Reports, the Prius is one of, if not the most, reliable car in America. Besides, it is fun to drive, without being obnoxious to other drivers on the road.

    It is unfortunate that most Americans still think with their wallets. People like Mr. Howard continually demonstrate that they "know the price of everything and the value of nothing."
     
  19. Somechic

    Somechic Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2005
    228
    1
    0
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    In case anyone else would like to express their opinion directly to the source:
    The author of this article is Joseph Perone.
    His email is [email protected]
    Phone: 973-392-4262

    Just to clarify, I am not suggesting you write hate mail, but constructiive arguements as to why his article is unrealistic. Many of the opinions shared here are great points as to why we need to deal with this type of reporting.
     
  20. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    1,748
    1
    0
    Location:
    New Brunswick, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Somechic @ Jun 21 2006, 08:23 AM) [snapback]274579[/snapback]</div>
    Personally, I think it's kinda crappy to post a guy's phone number on the net. If it's printed in the paper, or published on the website, link to that instead of reprinting it here.