Featured EVs have fewer repairs?

Not likely. In an ev, those strange noises that service departments can fix, but they don't and charge for don't really occur. Its a much tougher sell. This is why it is taken an outsider - Tesla - without a strong dealership network profiting from maintenance, to break through. Nissan and mitsubishi did very low end bevs. The rest really did phevs that need as much maintenance as other hybrids. Now that tesla has proven that buggy whips may not really sell well in the future .... gm, mercedes, bmw, and vw are all trying to do bevs, along with their high maintence cars.

 

most early adopters are pretty savvy. if the general public starts driving bev's, the games will continue.

 

A battery is a consumable, just like brake pads and rotors. ICE-only vehicles have small batteries that must be replaced periodically. Hybrids have the same battery, plus a traction unit. Eventually it will have to be replaced. That's a repair.

 

You might want to look at the data here: Vehicle Testing - Light Duty - All | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

My favorite: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/ev1_eva.pdf

For operating and maintenance cost: 2011 Nissan Leaf | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

Bob Wilson

 

an oil change once a year cost me a hundred bucks, so that would be gone. still have to rotate tyres and check air and cabin filters. over 100k, you've got plugs, fluids and such. there might be somethings on ev's that need maintenance by then, like liquid cooling for battery if applicable.

 

I saw the same thing. On the other hand, EV is the future, especially in cities. But regular cars will coexist for a long time.

nope, recalls don't count as repairs in truedelta and warranty is still a repair.

yes, while the EV drivetrain will have less parts, the battery has more parts and the chassis and rest of the car will have similar # parts. It's a wash.

the only problem is cost of battery replacement for EV is cost prohibitive. Junk yards will be full of them.

nonsense, battery in a hybrid is small, cheap and easy to replace compared to EV. You can't compare it to the brakes!

 

It depends on the brand, and more importantly, if the battery system is air or liquid cooled. The early Nissan Leafs did terribly in hot areas like Arizona due to their passive air cooled design which then lead to massive battery degradation which owners had to sue Nissan for to get them to replace them. Later ones, nicknamed "Lizard" batteries, are holding up better, but I've heard they can still suffer degradation in hot temperatures.

On the flip side, the Chevy Volt has a very robust liquid cooled/heating system for its battery. That's not to say no one ever had any issue with their battery in the Volt. But because GM over-engineered it, the battery has been holding up surprisingly well:

Zero Chevrolet Volt Batteries Replaced So Far Due To "General Capacity Degradation"

Erick Belmer currently has the highest mileage Volt so far. He's currently at around 388k miles as of this post, of which 136k of them were on electric (he has charging at home and at work thanks to working at a GM factory). He's had some repairs done to it, mostly wheel bearings and I think he hit something on the freeway that damaged the radiator, but he hasn't had any issues with the battery system itself, and still gets the same 35 miles in his 2012 Volt today that he got when he first bought it a few years ago. Here's his latest stats in case anyone's curious about it:

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

I think the batteries in Tesla cars have also largely held up well, since it too has a liquid cooling/heating system. This guy drove a Model S over 200k miles, and said it's only suffered about a 6% loss:

At 200,000 Miles, This Tesla Model S Experienced Only 6% Battery Degradation

EV's are still in the early adopter stages and there are bound to be teething problems that need to be worked out as they crop up. But over time I think as the technology matures, the costs drop, the number of charging stations increases, and people are less skeptical of them, EV's will have fewer problems than a gas one.

 

no doubt many new models will be over engineered until the mfg's have a handle on long term reliability.
then they will shave costs as sales go up with product acceptance.
then repairs will also increase.
just theory on my part, but there aren't many mfg's who want to overspend on reliability beyond a certain point, and then there's the whole dealer issue, unless they eventually go away, or transform into tesla like.

 

Any vehicle with any kind of antifreeze cooling for its components needs to have it changed over a period of time. When my Volt is due, I'll have it all done at the same time, cheap insurance.

 

The examples you have of EVs having the same or more problems as a car with an ICE are brand specific, and luxury brands at that.

Tesla has issues with the motor/PEM module, though they may have gotten a handle on it. In some cases, they replaced the unit for just having a noise, but before any failure. It is problem that I hope they have solved for the Model 3. Then they get dinged for the pop out door handles not working, the falcon wing doors, and general fit and finish, but those aren't EV centric issues. They can strike any type of car.

In regards to the i3, my understanding is that most of the issues for the model involve the engine on the REx. Nobody is claiming a hybrid will have less repairs than a traditional car.

So we need to filter the issues on BEVs on whether they are drive train specific or not, and also compare them to ICEs withing their segment.

Rebuilding an engine is cost prohibitive for many. Most simply chose to live with the lower efficiency and extra noises. The same will happen with BEVs, people will chose to live with a shorter range as long as it meets their daily needs.

Then the batteries will not end up in a junk yard. They are still valuable for uses like cell tower UBSs. Their core charge is going to be much higher than that of a transmission, that will make their replacement cost easier to bear. The eventual third party shops that will refurbish packs will also bring the costs down.

 

As hybrids become more popular, there's an industry growing for battery replacements. When EVs become more popular, I'm sure the industry will expand to accommodate them.
Dorman Products - Hybrid Battery Program

Hybrid Drive Batteries Remanufactured I CARDONE

 

there will probably be a design/ technology breakthrough at some point, where dealers can fairly easily replace modules and rebalance. might be a money maker.

 

Agree that a fairer comparison would be the reliability of current modern electric cars which have been on the market about 5 years to the reliability of gasoline cars from 1910-1915 or so, and as I recall a popular ditty from the 1913 was "He's Got To Get Out and Get Under (his automobile)" because they broke down so frequently in daily service. But I digress.

You mention the aviation domain, where routine maintenance is required, regulated and rigorously recorded. IIRC, the Austian maker of small aircraft offers a basic trainer in both ICE and electric-powered versions. The electric version is usable for 1-hour lessons in the local airport area; the ICE version will be used for cross-country flights of longer duration. The Time Before Overhaul on the ICE airplane is 1500-2000 hours or less, and the cost of such an overhaul is typically in the thousands of dollars. The TBO of the electricity powered version is planned to be much longer, and the overhaul will consist of replacing the front and rear bearings of the motor and 1 other item I forget, but the total cost is expected to be around $200. Gasoline is expensive in Europe, so the anticipated savings for a flight school using the electric versions for as much of the training as possible is due to a combination of much lower fuel costs (even allowing for battery replacement) and lower maintenance costs.
It will be interesting to see if the cost savings occur as predicted in both the aviation and automotive fields for BEVs in the long run, but personally I would far, far rather overhaul the motor on an electric airplane than an ICE , and having had ICEs quit on me in the air, I would far, far rather fly behind a motor, also. A typically unrecognized further advantage of a motor is that power output in unaffected by altitude , so as long as you have an adjustable propeller, you will have essentially the same thrust available up to your service ceiling, and I'm REALLY looking forward to that!

 

ok this is anecdotal - but our 1st EV was purchased 3/2011 and it has 75K+ miles on it now. It has only needed tires & cleaning out the cabin (reusable) filter. Certainly w/in the next couple years it'll also need wipers & maybe an alignment. If we keep it a few more years - it'll need a $5k traction battery replacement too. No big deal, as we've charged at home for free off our PV solar (the lion's share of EV owners do this too) - so the missing gas oil costs we'd have otherwise paid was a fair tradeoff, if we do the new battery thing. All that considered - yes - it's been a lot less expensive than the typical oil - filter - tuneup - gas - smog check etc routine. ymmv
.

 

Maintenance Plans | Tesla

Tesla wants its owners to pay between $475 & $850 per year for maintenance and inspections. Can't blame greedy/shady dealers for that.

 

So I took my own advice and here are the maintenance costs from the Advanced Vehicle Testing lab:

	model	miles	$maint/mile
1	BMW i3	17649	$0.00/mile
2	BMW i3	17370	$0.00/mile
3	BMW i3	15758	$0.00/mile
4	Mazda 3	99733	$0.02/mile
5	Mazda 3	99695	$0.02/mile
6	Mazda 3	102433	$0.03/mile

• Mazda 3 got ~5x the miles as the BMW i3
• BMW 3 maintenance cost ~$0.00/mile vs ~$0.02/mile Mazda 3

So from a pure maintenance cost, the BMW i3 EV is the clear winner. From a utility point of view, the Mazda 3 crushes the BMW i3 BUT that was not part of the poll.

Bob Wilson

 

i don't see where most modern gassers would be at $2,000. in maintenance at 100,000 miles, and zero for a bev at the same mileage.

 

that's for the poor slobs that don't know how to negotiate. They threw our inspection plan in for 3 years as part of our deal. You don't ask? You don't get.

.

 

There is a downloadable spreadsheet with all vehicle metrics here:
Downloads | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

So here is the data:

	Model Year	Model	miles	Maint $/mi
1	2013	CMaxHybrid	131624	0.0636
2	2013	CMaxHybrid	135782	0.0581
3	2013	JettaTDI	131646	0.0563
4	2013	CMaxHybrid	133211	0.0549
5	2013	JettaTDI	119080	0.0548
6	2013	JettaTDI	146339	0.0515
7	2014	Jetta	101092	0.0513
8	2013	Jetta	99249	0.0455
9	2013	CivicHybrid	190424	0.0448
10	2011	CRZ	159933	0.0427
11	2013	Malibu	164949	0.0396
12	2013	JettaTDI	124414	0.0364
13	2014	Jetta	86909	0.0357
14	2013	Malibu	144716	0.0355
15	2011	CRZ	160213	0.0346
16	2011	Sonata	160104	0.0307
17	2013	Malibu	162181	0.0306
18	2013	CMaxEnergi	123453	0.0297
19	2012	CivicCNG	128394	0.0289
20	2013	CivicHybrid	171639	0.0282
21	2013	Malibu	169216	0.028
22	2014	Mazda3	75775	0.0278
23	2012	CivicCNG	106883	0.0273
24	2013	CivicHybrid	202937	0.0269
25	2013	Volt	137427	0.0267
26	2013	CMaxEnergi	114522	0.0265
27	2013	FusionEnergi	115449	0.0264
28	2013	Prius	160464	0.0257
29	2013	FusionEnergi	132924	0.0257
30	2011	Sonata	120483	0.0247
31	2015	Accord	70920	0.0244
32	2013	CMaxHybrid	160268	0.0242
33	2011	Volt	123490	0.0237
34	2015	Accord	74592	0.0237
35	2014	Jetta	87684	0.0234
36	2011	Volt	117052	0.0228
37	2013	CivicHybrid	125480	0.0227
38	2013	FusionEnergi	95476	0.0216
39	2013	Prius	147012	0.0206
40	2012	CivicCNG	113736	0.0202
41	2013	Leaf	24755	0.02
42	2014	CruzeDiesel	57222	0.0197
43	2013	Prius	161483	0.0196
44	2014	CruzeDiesel	66597	0.0196
45	2012	CivicCNG	100860	0.0189
46	2013	FusionEnergi	126371	0.0179
47	2015	Accord	75336	0.0175
48	2013	Volt	142423	0.0172
49	2014	Mazda3	74934	0.017
50	2013	Volt	138024	0.0167
51	2012	iMiev	19866	0.0166
52	2013	Prius	169601	0.0164
53	2013	CMaxEnergi	132832	0.0154
54	2014	CruzeDiesel	54723	0.0154
55	2015	Accord	44105	0.0143
56	2011	Leaf	36395	0.014
57	2013	Volt	131224	0.0139
58	2014	Mazda3	73015	0.0134
59	2014	CruzeDiesel	70249	0.0129
60	2011	Leaf	31753	0.0111
61	2013	CMaxEnergi	36473	0.0102
62	2014	Mazda3	21763	0.0067
63	2013	FocusEV	15820	0.0047
64	2013	FocusEV	17844	0.0042
65	2015	Soul	13576	0.002
66	2013	FocusEV	16741	0.0016
67	2014	i3 REX	21992	0
68	2012	iMiev	21988	0
69	2013	Leaf	21868	0
70	2013	Leaf	21822	0
71	2014	i3 REX	21311	0
72	2015	Impala	19301	0
73	2014	i3 REX	19211	0
74	2014	i3 REX	18094	0
75	2013	Leaf	17673	0
76	2013	FocusEV	17352	0
77	2015	Soul	14574	0
78	2015	Soul	13429	0
79	2015	Soul	13210	0
80	2014	ElectricDriveCoupe	13046	0
81	2014	i3 EV	12762	0
82	2014	i3 EV	12416	0
83	2014	i3 EV	12007	0
84	2014	i3 EV	11990	0
85	2014	ElectricDriveCoupe	11965	0
86	2015	E-Golf	11073	0
87	2014	ElectricDriveCoupe	10858	0
88	2014	ElectricDriveCoupe	10657	0
89	2015	E-Golf	10607	0
90	2015	Spark	10063	0
91	2015	Spark	9662	0
92	2015	E-Golf	9418	0
93	2015	Spark	9092	0
94	2015	Spark	8957	0
95	2015	E-Golf	7719	0
96	2015	B-Class	7621	0
97	2015	B-Class	7502	0
98	2015	B-Class	7236	0
99	2015	B-Class	6926	0
100	2016	Volt	4956	0
101	2016	Volt	3990	0
102	2016	Volt	3825	0
103	2016	Volt	3776	0

I omitted the 0 miles vehicles. My lying eyes say the EVs have significantly lower maintenance costs. I recommend picking up the spreadsheet and taking a long look at the data. Then fix your vote/results.

Bob Wilson