Changing the PSD fluid?

Hi folks,

The detailed analysis is available at:

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_toil.html

This includes charts for:

1) viscosity change over miles
2) wear material change over miles
3) additive material change over miles

Feel free to offer any comments or suggestions. I claim no special knowledge, just the results of six oil samples, two baseline and four used samples.

My Amsoil ATF experiment continues but it looks like the next change interval should be between 12-17,000 miles. At my current rate of driving, we're looking at nearly 7-10 months of ordinary driving.

Bob Wilson

 

I just had the dealership change my transaxle fluid today with my 30,000 mile service and recall.

They told me it was "world fluid" or something and didn't need changed and that a little discoloration is normal.
But I had them do it anyway for $42 for the fluid and another $42 for labor.
I also had them send out a sample so I will post it here once I get it back.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(benighted @ Jul 1 2006, 12:19 AM) [snapback]279550[/snapback]</div>

Hummm, it is "Type W", which according to Toyota is a lower friction fluid. Unfortunately, I don't have a baseline sample test.

I have held off on testing the "Type W" because it is sold only in a $45 gallon container and the testing costs another $25. But I'm begining to think of it as an alternative to the "Type T" along with Amsoil ATF. I have to think about this.

Your dealer is handling the sample testing? If possible, ask them to make sure the viscosity is tested at 40 ( C) and 100 ( C). This allows us to look at both the cold and warm temperature performance. Once your data is available, I _MAY_ get a virgin sample tested and we'll start the "Type W" experiment (gosh $70 is a lot to spend on testing an oil not yet rated for my NHW11 Prius.)

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Jul 1 2006, 12:22 AM) [snapback]279585[/snapback]</div>

They are sending it to Masco Petroleum, I don't know what temperatures they are going to test at.

 

I'm currently building a filter adapter to allow the use of a Toyota spin-on transmission filter that is used on all Toyota forklift transmissions. Remote mount and just spin on a new one every 2nd ICE oil change. I'm making it so I can install 4 hi-power magnets inside it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 1 2006, 02:12 PM) [snapback]279756[/snapback]</div>

Will it be in series with the pump or a filter-shunt?

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Jul 1 2006, 04:46 PM) [snapback]279841[/snapback]</div>

it'll be a series filter, out of the pump into the filter into the PSD. The filter is the same size as an ICE filter so every change will add back about 3 oz of Type T-4. Have been thinking about how to add heat to the outside of the filter so we in colder climates can get it up to temp in the winter as well. Out here a really hot day is 80F and we don't get a lot of them and we go months on end in the winter at just around freezing. So just have to come up with some method of shutting off the heat in the summer. Will take and post pictures when it's done.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 1 2006, 09:35 PM) [snapback]279896[/snapback]</div>

Sounds great.

We had a another 100 (F) day here and I drove 50 miles from Huntsville AL over to Old Fabius, a hill with a 7% grade, 3 miles long and a 950 ft. rise to do some hill climb tests and mode "B" descents. Cruising at 60 mph, the warmest the transmission oil ever got was 146 (F) while driving. Even the hill climb only brought it up to 148 (F). Now after taking a rest stop at the top of the hill, the oil does get hotter, 160 (F). But once I drove a couple of hundred yards, it cooled back down quickly.

Some other stats:

52 MPG - mileage on 50 mile trip over with AC at 60 mph
20 MPG - mileage on 3 miles up Old Fabius without AC at 60 mph
55 MPG - mileage on 50 mile trip back without AC at 60 mph

100 (F) - 38 ( C) | 60 MPH - 96 km/H | 20 MPG - 8.49 km/l
146 (F) - 63 ( C) | 3 mi - 4.8 km | 55 MPG - 23.35 km/l
160 (F) - 71 ( C) | 950 ft. - 290 m.

I've ordered the smaller, external "oil pan" heater from JC Whitney, 250 W., along with their 750 W., engine coolant heater. The oil pan heater will go on the transaxle pan and I'll use my oil temperature probe to handle cycling the heater on/off. The external pan heater is not my optimum approach but a backing of insulating foam and fiberglass in the winter will reduce heater losses and driving cold air chill. But I hate having it exposed to 'road debre.'

I admire your approach with the remote, spin type oil filter and am interested. If you'll post the dimensions of the spin-on filter, I'll check if the JC Whitney heater pad can 'wrap' around it. I do have a spare ICE oil filter and could easily use that to check dimensions and post photos. Let me know.

In the meanwhile, I've ordered a Toyota Echo, automatic transmission filter. I understand they are 'washable metal' but won't know until I get it. I have a spare transaxle pan and will see if the filter can fit and look at rigging up an oil pickup tube. What I don't know is the 'mesh size'. Do you know what size the spin filter handles?

The reason for the spare transaxle pan is I'm looking for a heater coil that can fit inside the pan. If I find one, I'll also mount the thermister so it will be isolated in the oil, away from from the external pan. Then I can use an oil drain valve for the plug to allow easy taking of samples.

Is your transaxle on an NHW20, using Type W oil?

Bob Wilson

 

I drive a 2k3 just like you do and what I'd do if I were you and want a heater in the PSD is get a Prius block heater and machine a tube that it fits in and tig it into the bottom of the pan externally and inset the block heater in it. Then put an insulating bat over the pan. My idea is to have a hot water coil wrap around the filter and plumb it into the ICE or possibly the inverter coolant line before the cooler. Still thinking about that part of it. Just need to get some time on the lathe to machine up the filter adapter. Probably next friday as were supposed to get some rain.
Edit: I think if memory serves me the filter is a 15 micron.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 1 2006, 11:36 PM) [snapback]279945[/snapback]</div>

Thanks!

I tried to order the block heater but the web page has shutdown. But I wasn't happy with what I understood was an unregulated heater element. So I checked the JC Whitney catalog and found they have three models of coolant heaters and they are thermostaticly controlled. Having removed the inverter for my vent plug, I know exactly where it will fit.

As for auxillary heating of the pan when a plug-in is not available, my temperature measurements indicate that in our milder climate, just going to lunch is enough to ensure the temperature will be fine on the evening commute. But Hobbit had done some work with ducting around the exhaust pipe.

Exhaust heat is available much faster than the ICE coolant and free for a little duct work. I'm also paranoid about having the ICE coolant, a high pressure conductive fluid, getting too close to the transaxle and loss of ICE coolant would be a bad thing. But it sounds like you've got the tooling to do the job right!

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Jul 1 2006, 11:24 PM) [snapback]279998[/snapback]</div>

the Prius block heater is about 325 watts and if your going to integrate it with the temp thermistor to control it I doubt it would ever present a problem. I've let mine run for 3 days and the temp was at 52C. Just enough to put the cold temp light out. I'd guess the block holds about the same amount of coolant as the PSD holds atf. The mass of the PSD is probably greater than the ICE as well so doubt that you'd ever overheat the atf. That might be another thing for me to try. I still run the block heater on day's I work and I'm in S4 about 5 blocks from home. 2 1/2 timed hours gets me to about 45-50C in the summer. On the coolant, we already have coolant in the PSD and the inverter and any leakage is no more of a problem than a blown heater hose or inverter/PSD coolant hose. These are all items I look at every oil change and on my pre trip check over inspections. I'm an old mechanic who's been at this stuff for 45 plus years and these are the kind of challanges that I like.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 1 2006, 09:35 PM) [snapback]279896[/snapback]</div>

Why not out of the PSD, into the filter, then into the pump? Surely the PSD will be the major source of any particles; better to never let them into the pump in the first place.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Jul 2 2006, 09:23 AM) [snapback]280112[/snapback]</div>

there is a suction filter on the inlet and also if you have a leak on the suction side you'll never know if it's leaking as the pump will be starved for oil whereas on the pressure side you'll have a visible leak.

 

This is an interesting thread. I'm old enough to be a member of AARP but was once a big auto DIYer (back in the days of points, condensers, timing lights, carburators, etc). For the last 20ish years I've not felt capable of doing much more than changing oil and replacing a hose or belt (if not surpentine). Doing a PSD fluid change on my '05 sounds like a good DIY item so I'm wondering about a source for instructions. I have found great details here on oil changes and cabin filter replacement. Are there any such details for a PSD fluid change?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 2 2006, 02:07 AM) [snapback]280011[/snapback]</div>

I checked again and haven't found a web site that sells the part. Toyota Canada will sell it as dealer installed but that is quite a drive from Huntsville AL. The local Toyota service parts department couldn't find it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 2 2006, 02:07 AM) [snapback]280011[/snapback]</div>

The Dept. of Energy ran some performance reports that showed the temperature of the ATF makes a significant impact on the efficiency. In cooler weather, I've seen the ICE warm up quickly but there is no heat source for the transaxle. It warms up by converting mechanical energy to heat from MG1/MG2 and mechanical work. What really clued me was the Canadian fleet report that showed an extended warm-up in cold weather. The ICE handles warm-up quickly but the transaxle doesn't.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 2 2006, 02:07 AM) [snapback]280011[/snapback]</div>

I'm planning to install both heaters this summer and begin year round experiments and measurements. They should be here in a week or so.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 2 2006, 02:07 AM) [snapback]280011[/snapback]</div>

As long as the hot coolant flows around and outside, no problem.

In my case, I'd been thinking about running a coolant loop through the transaxle pan and while figuring out the welding vs. fittings, I had this vision of a coolant leak. I then remembered Hobbit's exhaust heater ducting and realized how much heat was available and how quickly. The transaxle is air cooled so air warmed made sense. BUT, I like your approach too . . . especially the external filter.

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BrianG @ Jul 2 2006, 04:46 PM) [snapback]280283[/snapback]</div>

here's a screen grab of the location of the fill and drain plug on a G2 Prius (2k4 to 2k6)

 

Here is my page with photos:

http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/pri_T_cold.html

Do consider capturing a sample in a clean, dry water bottle and sending it to an oil testing service. When you change it, smell it to see if smells 'burnt.'

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Jul 2 2006, 07:32 PM) [snapback]280358[/snapback]</div>

Bob he has as 2005 and the PSD is different than on the Classic. No pan on it just a drain and fill plug.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon @ Jul 2 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]280373[/snapback]</div>

Owch, my bad. I still think getting a sample tested is a good idea.

Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bwilson4web @ Jul 3 2006, 12:21 AM) [snapback]280432[/snapback]</div>

oh for sure I'd do a UOA on it as well.