1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Opinions: Gas Tax

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by mr88cet, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I've been thinking about a topic that's likely to become a proverbial "hot potato" in the near future: Gas taxes. In particular, I've been thinking with respect to the fact that EV and PHEV drivers avoid gas taxes to one degree or another. Since Trump has pushes in mind relating to tax policy and infrastructure improvement (the latter being one of the few things Trump stands for that I agree with), gas taxes are pretty likely to come up.

    My thoughts:

    First and foremost, there must *never* be disincentives for efficiency; in fact, quite the opposite. That is, HV drivers currently pay less gas tax because their cars require less gas, and that is good: It encourages car manufacturers to make more-efficient vehicles and car buyers to buy more-efficient vehicles. If overall gas-tax revenue is going down for that reason, then they need to raise the tax rate per gallon, rather than creating some sort of disgusting additional tax for HV drivers.

    However, when our cars use other energy sources, and we thereby do not contribute proportionately to road maintenance costs, that's a different concern. Obviously I'd ideally prefer not to pay more tax of any sort, but I personally am willing to pay my share in that regard.

    It's complicated, though!

    First of all, almost as much of the cost of road maintenance comes from other revenue sources, as from gas taxes. Second, PHEVs get some of their energy from gas and some from externally-charged electricity, and now much from each varies from owner to owner, and from time to time. That means that, although it might be fair to charge pure-EV drivers a per-mile tax, that wouldn't work for PHEV drivers, since some of their miles' tax were already covered by gas taxes paid. Even in the pure-EV case, how to reliably, fairly, and conveniently report those miles driven and collect revenue from them becomes ... challenging.

    Probably the best solution ultimately is "smart metering." Specifically, being able to automatically detect when a given KWh is used for car charging as opposed to for general household use. Road-maintenance taxes could then be assessed and collected from there. That capability is available, and is gradually -- accent on gradually -- being deployed more.

    In all of this, however, I'm glad that, for now at least, we PH/EV drivers are a pretty small percentage of drivers in general. So, it's a "knotty problem," but perhaps one that, for now, is not a huge revenue loss. So, I hope lawmakers will ignore us for a while at least! :)

    Either way though, some strategizing on this topic might not be a bad idea. Preferably *very quietly*, though! :)

    Thoughts?


    iPad ? Pro
     
    #1 mr88cet, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
    Pdog808, priuscatprimeguy and Dido like this.
  2. huskers

    huskers Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    2,542
    2,485
    0
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    They will have to pry my Prime out of my cold dead hands.
     
    priuscatprimeguy likes this.
  3. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    5,596
    3,770
    0
    Location:
    So. Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Fuel tax should be based on two things: weight and miles driven per year. Those two factors are the main reasons for road deterioration. Settle up once a year at the tax office and you'd see MAJOR changes in driver behavior.
     
    #3 fotomoto, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  4. Dido

    Dido New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2017
    1
    1
    0
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
    My home state of Tennessee implemented a gas tax of $0.6 per gallon, and included a $100 per year registration fee for fully electric vehicles (including my 2013 Nissan Leaf). While this does not include gas-electric hybrids like the Prius Prime, I expect federal lawmakers to use the Tennessee bill as an example to implement a federal increase.

    Although I'm not particularly happy about paying the extra fee, I did get to drive the car over 4 years without paying for my portion of road maintenance, so I understand the need to capture payment for wear and tear caused by PH/EVs. I do feel, however, that a function of cost per odometer mile and weight of the vehicle (for traditional ICE and PH/EVs) would more fairly account for use of roads, as the flat $100 per year seems arbitrary.
     
    priuscatprimeguy likes this.
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    just raise the gas tax. fuel efficient cars are available to anyone who wants one.
     
  6. dalcon95

    dalcon95 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    512
    652
    2
    Location:
    Easley, South Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    South Carolina just passed a new gas tax increase with a fee of $60 for hybrids and $120 for electric vehicles every 2 years. The fee will be implimented with the tag renew. Not sure which way the plugin hybrids will fall yet. Haven't got a clear answer. Everyone else will pay a yearly increase of 2 cents per gallon for 6 years to give a total increase of 12 cents per gallon more. I figured the hybrids and electric vehicle will feel the full blunt of the tax increase right away with the fees. To soften the blow on the gas tax, you can save all of your gas receipts to get a refund of the tax increase for now when you file for your state income taxes. Not sure how many people will go through that hassle though for something that maybe equivalent to $30 a year. Crazy!!!

    #1 in Easley,SC
     
    #6 dalcon95, Jul 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
    Bob Comer, joachimz, stevepea and 2 others like this.
  7. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,567
    1,595
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    107,571
    48,862
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    couldn't agree more.
     
    dalcon95 likes this.
  9. drysider

    drysider Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    823
    332
    1
    Location:
    Liberty Lake WA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    The commercial use taxes on roads have been based on weight and miles for decades. Individuals should be taxed the same. You pay for what you use.
     
  10. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I have a question and a comment:

    Question: How would you imagine such a tax would be assessed? Same as for big rigs?

    Comment: My personal opinion is that taxes are not entirely about defraying costs of Government services. They're also about incentives to citizens/residents and industries. Also cost sharing.


    iPhone ? Pro
     
  11. Washingtonian

    Washingtonian Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    710
    608
    0
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Not sure how the State would know how many miles I drive my three vehicles each year or whether I would want them to know. Obviously the tax on gasoline and diesel fuel was originally imposed as it looked like a fair way to tax vehicles to pay for the infrastructure the vehicles were using. When the price of oil and thus gas dropped, it was less painful to increase the tax, thus we are hearing more of it now. My state has the second highest tax on fuel in the Nation (after PA), at $.494 per gallon plus the Federal tax of $.184 for a total of 67.8 cents per gallon. With the National wholesale price of gasoline at roughly $1.50 per gallon, there is no way we will ever see gas here at less than $2. per gallon as I have heard recently from other states. It seems obvious, once the Model 3 Tesla gets into full production, there will be no need for tax rebates for electric vehicles, the price of oil will fall considerably, and the States will need to find a different way to fund roads and bridges.
     
  12. stevepea

    stevepea Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    531
    578
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Everyone wants things -- but never to have to pay for them. But at some point, reality has to creep in. A politician can promise -- but will never be able to deliver -- delicious, real chocolate chip cookies with no calories.

    So what can be done, mr88cent asks. Well, Calif has recently done a couple things, though they're probably temporary solutions at best, until something better can be figured out.

    California is raising the gas tax starting Nov 2017, and is also raising registration fees (this set off the typical politics between parties, as car taxes is California's perennial political football -- the equivalent of abortion perhaps in other states). But reality means one can't get something for nothing, and I'm smart enough to know I'm being played by politicians who eagerly try to promise that. The difficult trick though, is to collect enough money, in as fair a manner as possible, to maintain the roads properly.

    The problem (as mr88cent pointed out) is that the # of gallons being used has shot way down -- both from much higher MPG, as well as from the (slower) shift to other power sources (EV, Nat gas). So even if the roads are being driven upon at the same rate, the amount of taxes collected has gone way down because people are using less gas (and paying less in gas taxes now than they used to because of that -- though they probably don't realize it). So yeah, it "looks" bad to make someone pay more per gallon of gas in taxes... but if you were to compare the total amount you paid in gas taxes for 2016 vs the total you paid in, say 1996, you'd be surprised by how much less you're actually paying now (because today's cars use much less gas).

    Calif will also soon start charging $100/yr for 100% EV cars. The idea makes sense, though the $100 figure seems random and not very fair (interesting to hear that some states instituted a plain hybrid or plugin fee as well).

    Instead of a flat $100 (or other random figure), should there instead just be an additional tax on electricity usage? At least that's prorated (the more you charge, the more you pay, the less you charge, the less you pay). But to make it fair, it would have to be taxed only for charging your car (so running your stereo wouldn't incur the road tax). You could argue most 100% EV car users have the higher level 240V dedicated charging stations and don't do trickle charges like us Prime users do, so could try to tax only those chargers... but if people really wanted to get away without paying it, and had enough time each night to charge at the slower voltage, they could go the 110V any-outlet route, and get around paying it. Then there are also hybrid-plug-in users -- and if they have shorter drives to work, they can get away with only rarely using gas -- and charging via 110V means they'll hardly ever pay a gas/electric usage-rated tax. So this is the problem facing Calif, esp as the state has really pushed EV for the future (just today there was an article in the LA Times about how LA's buses will now be EV, instead of natural gas, in the coming years). Adding a tax to public chargers like Chargepoint is easy... but how to make it prorated fairly for driving usage while charging at home (or work) is tough.

    Like anything in life, there's no perfect formula that will ever make it precisely, exactly fair to everyone. The best you can do is to try to make it generally as fair as possible to the greatest number of people. I'd love to hear other people's suggestions on what to do for EV & Plugin Hybrid users. A flat fee isn't as "fair" as a more usage-based tax. But how do you tax something (electricity) for road usage/upkeep, when it's also used for clock radios and dialysis machines?
     
    #12 stevepea, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  13. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    7,028
    1,116
    0
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    Everyone uses electricity. Repeal the extra taxes on liquid fuels and replace them with a tax on electricity. Perhaps it is time for the motoring public to start lobbying for using pot taxes for transportation.
     
  14. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Agreed, with one, with a few notes.

    Gas tax currently serves two purposes.
    First, to act as a proxy for both weight, and miles driven. This was a close approximation back in the days that efficiency was influenced mainly by weight.
    Second, to incentivize more efficient vehicle choices.

    The issues with the taxes are that they are not adjusted automatically. In our state, the gas tax hasn't gone up in over 20 years. I am not sure when the federal tax last increased.

    Second, make sure the taxes collected go strictly to roads (in our state it goes to the general fund).

    Our society/government (state and federal) needs to decide what the purpose of the use tax is. If it is solely to pay for roads, then base the use-tax solely on weight and miles driven for all vehicles. With the same formula for commercial and private vehicles.

    If we want to continue to incentivize efficiency, bake that into the formula.

    Then removed the state sales tax from electricity (or add it to gasoline). Also, have the use-tax indexed to inflation.

    Annual mileage declaration can be made at tab renewal time, very simple.
     
    mr88cet likes this.
  15. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    6,972
    3,209
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    How about starting with something simple like not allowing the politicians to use the taxes for anything else but the roads.
     
  16. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Good thoughts!

    So then, how can #miles driven, and even more "interestingly," #EV-mode miles, be documented and verified?

    Perhaps EVs and especially PHEVs may need to document that, and report it (perhaps upon annual vehicle inspection) to the State.


    iPhone ? Pro
     
    #16 mr88cet, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  17. dalcon95

    dalcon95 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    512
    652
    2
    Location:
    Easley, South Carolina
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    I heard that Greenville County School District in our area are talking about getting all EV buses for their schools. They build the EV buses in the same county too. It would temperary help jobs too.

    #1 in Easley,SC
     
    Prius from Dad likes this.
  18. Prius Maximus

    Prius Maximus Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    929
    774
    1
    Location:
    Northeastern IL
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    not to mention how to handle out-of-state miles.

    Gen 3s don't distinguish EV from gas miles. Do the Primes?

    KWH usage. ev miles. gas miles. in state miles. out of state miles. full stats for multiple vehicles. We might need to hire accountants to track all of this stuff. Then they'll tax us for road fees for paying the accountants to work on road-related taxes.
     
  19. crewdog

    crewdog Acting Ensign Prius Prime

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    492
    388
    6
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Along with repealing the tax credit for pure EVs, Georgia implemented a tax of $200 for pure EVs and any vehicle that got an Alternative Fuel license plate.

    The Prime is exempt, so far.

    Now I only think it's fair that I should pay my share of maintenance for the roads I use, so I'm not averse to an alternate scheme of fee assessment.

    The math on the state of GA side is a little lopsided I think.

    Carinsurance.com lists average miles/licensed driver by state, with GA listing as 18,920 miles/licensed driver
    A Pure EV would pay 1.05708 cents/mile as a road fee.
    If you put average ice vehicle at 30 mpg, it uses 630.666 gals for the year.
    The GA gasoline tax is 26.3 cents/gallon
    So, the average driver pays $165.865 in gas tax per year at the pump.
    Average driver pays 0.87666/cents/mile in road tax.

    I've used about 16 gallons of gas since I got the Prime in Nov '16, so I've paid $4.20 in gas tax for about 6400 miles, which translates into
    about 6.5625 cents/mile.

    (i think I've done math correctly...)

    So what's fair?

    A separate meter at the EVSE?
    Software data dump from vehicle to a state computer?
    Recording vehicle mileage each year with a state tax return?

    Our technology may advance, but state legislation might still be in the before time, and take a while to catch up.
     
  20. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,154
    4,146
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    No, eliminate the gas tax and replace it with a single use tax for all vehicles.
    Ignore in state vs out state mileage. Your home state would get paid for miles you drive out of state and other states would be paid for miles driven by their residents in your state.
    Most interstate travel will be on federal interstates anyways. And the federal interstate will get a percentage of everyone's use-tax.

    No need to track EV vs gas miles, or where the driving occurs.
     
    dalcon95 likes this.