Is it a religion?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Jul 9 2006, 01:09 PM) [snapback]283378[/snapback]</div>

I doubt it, but you may have managed to plant a seed. B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Jul 9 2006, 10:09 AM) [snapback]283378[/snapback]</div>

No, but they will be back, and perhaps you will convert.

You have expressed an interest in talking to them, and even though it was a lark to you, to them it is deadly serious business. They now have a solemn obligation to follow up and continue to visit with you, even if it is to talk about energy independence because you might show an interest at a later date. And you might.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 9 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]283411[/snapback]</div>

Let them. And each time immediately change the conversation. They'll eventually get that 1. You're not going to convert and 2. You're wasting the time they could be spending trying to convert someone else.

You're doing a great public service. Try to keep them occupied as long as possible. (I like to do this with telemarketers too. Time is money.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Jul 9 2006, 12:09 PM) [snapback]283378[/snapback]</div>

What are JW's?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 9 2006, 02:04 PM) [snapback]283471[/snapback]</div>

Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

I don't know why anyone wastes their time in this respect. Thankfully, I have never had a JW come knocking at my door, if I did, it would be a very quick and respectful, "Not interested, thanks..." as the door closes again. But hey, whatever floats your boat, is what I often say...

- Ubuntu

h34r:

 

I remember the last time I had that happen. It was the late 1970's or early 1980's and I was a college student living off campus in the ground floor of a duplex in a residential neighborhood. I thought is was a buddy of min knocking on the door so I answered it in my boxer shorts and I distinctly remember having a Budweiser in my free hand. They didn't bat an eye at my attire (or lack thereof), and asked if I had a minute to talk and I informed the man that he could go out and buy a six pack while I got to know the nice young lady...

They never came back.

 

I have a sign to prevent this:




Incidentally, this is a Prophet Bobby approved FSM decal source =)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 9 2006, 11:56 AM) [snapback]283427[/snapback]</div>

They used to visit me from time to time. I considered it a public service to keep them occupied as long as possible, so they'd have less time to pester others. Once, when I was very young I produced a mimeographed "tract" advocating the sacrifice of horses to the Aztec god Quetzalcoatl and promised to read ther tract if they'd read mine. (I was not yet a vegetarian, and was blithly ignorant of the fact that it was Huitzilapochtli (I've probably spelled that wrong) and not Quetzalcoatl to whom the Aztecs sacrificed people. I was aware that the Aztecs did not sacrifice horses, indeed had none before the arrival of the Spanish, but I thought advocating the sacrifice of people would be too extreme.

Once the person who came by was a young woman, and in those days my policy was to seriously present the case for atheism. We talked for an hour or two before she left. She returned the following Sunday and the same thing took place. The following Sunday she appeared with a man who I took to be her minister, as he was clearly a more experienced and more talented debater. The discussion followed the same trend except that he was much more confident in his arguments. I never saw them again. I presume he told her to forget about trying to convert me and move on to more fertile pastures.

Sadly, I now live in a community that is posted against solicitors, and these entertaining people have not shown up once since I moved in.

Yes, it is a religion: They have a well-developed theology, which they believe more sincerely than most mainstream religious followers. They are Christians, though their dogma is unconventional in some few respects. And they take their beliefs and injunctions seriously. Why would you ask whether it's a religion or not?

I do not know if they are universally pacifists, but I do know that in WW II, the JW's, along with the Seventh Day Adventists, formed the greater part of consciencious objectors in prison for refusing to enter the military. Regardless of your own views on war, the military, or WW II, the JW's were sincere about their religious beliefs.

I think they are crazy, but I like them.

They're not as much fun to argue with as the Mormons, however. I've only twice been visited by Mormons, and I don't know if they were representative, but they were completely delusional, absolutely stark raving bonkers, and great fun to listen to.

 

I should have mentioned that I have one friend who is JW, and she is one of the best examples of a just plain good person that I've ever encountered. She didn't ever even try to convert us (when I met her, we were in a 16 person geology van with 5,000 miles before us, and she could have made the trip truly awful) but she was more than happy to respond to anything anyone was willing to bring up. She was perfectly sane except for her beliefs ;-)

One time she came up to visit my husband and I, and I teased her - I wasn't sure she was 'allowed' to hang out with people like us. She grinned and told me that she was a Jehovah's Witness - she's expected to hang out with people like us =)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(geologyrox @ Jul 9 2006, 04:13 PM) [snapback]283527[/snapback]</div>

What JW's believe is really not all that different from what other Christians believe. In fact, they're a wee bit less lunatic than other Christians because they don't believe that god tortures people for eternity for not believing in him. Their obsession with the idea that we are living in the End Times is rather over the edge, but it's hard to get any sillier than the fundamental Christian belief that humans are the most sublime of god's creations. I repeat that I like them. Anybody who refuses to participate in war gets brownie points in my book. And while they do go around trying to convert people, I don't think they try to pass laws denying basic human and civil rights to people of other belief systems.

I think the FSM in His Noodly Wisdom will welcome them into heaven and allow them access to the beer volcano for being good people, even if they have not seen the light of His True Noodliness.

 

I've had a few of them. They always come around as a woman, a man, and 2 kids. They claim that they it is a family, even though I know it's probably BS. last time there was a old asian guy, probably in his 50's, and a woman who was perhaps 30 with 2 young kids around 5. I pointed to my muzzuza (sp?) on the side of the door and asked them if they knew what it meant. They said they did, so I said so why did you bother me? They left...

The best one was a foreign exchange friend of mine in high school. They don't have people witnessing door-to-door in Sweden, so he had no idea what they were. In fact, he thought it was somebody trying to sell something. So, they knocked, he opened the door, saw a bunch of people dressed in suits he didn't know, and said in his best english "I'm sorry... we don't want any", and closed the door.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(San Diego Steve @ Jul 9 2006, 11:45 PM) [snapback]283629[/snapback]</div>

Should they 'bother' only other Jehovah's Witnesses?

I'm not completely sure what exactly a mezuzah on a doorpost signifies about the residents' religious beliefs. I remember being rather surprised by something I found browsing through an issue of Medical Economics years ago. They presented loads of survey data from physicians across the country. As part of this, they reported on the percentage of physicians who reported that they believed in God, broken down by all sorts of groupings including religion. It was interesting to see how the percentage believing in God varied by religion of the physician. What amazed and educated me was that the percentage of Jewish doctors who believed in God was lower than all other religious groups and even significantly lower than the group of of doctors who reported having no religion. I had never imagined that a Jewish doctor would be less likely to believe in God than a doctor with no religion would be. They didn't have separate categories for atheists or agnostics. I thought they would all fall under no religion. But then I don't follow a religion out of family tradition.

Don't get me wrong. I have some close friends whose personal Jewish Faith I envy. (Is that breaking one of the commandments? ) As a group, I can't think of another group of people whose rationality I admire more.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 9 2006, 08:35 PM) [snapback]283622[/snapback]</div>

The theology of JWs is outside the mainstream of Christian orthodoxy, as is the Mormons, but I wouldn't expect you to know that (or care). You may be surprised to find that, while they don't believe in hell, they also don't believe very many go to heaven (although they may have had "clarification" on that once their numbers got above the 144,000 they used to say were saved). By numerical standards, they are more exclusionary than other Christians.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theorist @ Jul 9 2006, 09:15 PM) [snapback]283641[/snapback]</div>

The mezuzah (thanks for the spelling correction) signifies merely that it's a jewish household. One would expect that if one is on a doorpost, that there is at least some moderate religous people of the jewish faith residing in the house. if I remember my hebrew school teachings correctly, the mezuzah has it's basis from the passover story. In particular, when the angel of death came to slay the egyptians first born, the Jews were instructed to smear lambs blood on the doorposts to signify that they were jewish. I think my neighbors would get annoyed at that and so the modern showing of a jewish house is the mezuzah.

I would have thought that the JW's would have realized that they stand little chance converting somebody who already shows religious beliefs of such a different religion. At least somebody who believes in christ they would have a better chance, or somebody who shows no relgious beliefs.


I can't say why so many people/doctors who consider themselves Jewish do not state a belief in a god (which personally I don't think I do either). My only guess is a fundamental difference in teachings. God is supposed to be a merciful being, who may have a say during the high holidays on whether we live or die, but generally stays out of peoples lives. It's us to us to be good people for the sake of being good people, not out of some fear. It's a Jew's obligation to be the best person he/she can. Contrast this to other religions (like Christianity) where God will punish you if you don't follow him.

Oh, and envy is one of the 7 deadly sins, but not explicity forbidden by the 10 commandments. Unless the Jew you envy is your neighbors wife

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(theorist @ Jul 9 2006, 09:15 PM) [snapback]283641[/snapback]</div>

The reason is simple, if not obvious: The term "Jewish" is used to designate a religion, an ethnicity, and a culture. Many people identify as ethnic Jews, or as ethnic and cultural Jews who do not accept the Jewish religion. I identify as an ethnic Jew, but I do not believe in the religion, and as regulars on this board well know, I am an atheist. There are many many people like me, who are atheists but who identify as Jewish for reasons other than religion.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 9 2006, 09:25 PM) [snapback]283652[/snapback]</div>

I am well aware of all this. But they do believe that Jesus was the Savior, that he died for our (their?) sins, that the Christian Bible is the word of god. Are you saying that they do not have a religion just because their theology is outside the mainstream Christian line? Or that they are not Christians because they believe only a few people will get into heaven? Or maybe they are not Christians because they refuse to fight in war?

They are definitely outside the mainstream, but they are also definitely a Christian religion.

And most evangelical sects believe that only a very few people will get into heaven.

But when I consider a person, I do not care what her beliefs are. I care about how she lives and how she treats other people. It annoys me when people kill each other in the name of a man who told his followers to love their enemies. It annoys me when people use their religion as an excuse to try to pass laws limiting the fundamental human rights of other people. It does not annoy me if a persom thinks I am going to hell.

 

I seem to have found a way to keep JWs from my door. They were coming around a lot till one day. When I opened the door and discovered them there again, this time I dropped down on one knee and addressed the kids while ignoring the adults. I told the kids they were being used as objects and were not being allowed to be just plain kids. I pointed to the children out playing on the street in front of my house and told the JW kids the others in the street were doing god's work by playing. That was their job. I then asked them if they would like me to call the police and report the attending adults for using the kids for adult purposes. I raved on and on about adults abusing children for their own grown up purposes etc. till the adults had enough and dragged the poor awestruck kids away. They have never even once come back since then.

 

Far out. As a Preacher, and a Follower Of Christ, I try to let others do their own thing. I don't care if one believes, or doesn't believe. What they do with their own life is up to them...

The message I follow, is one of peace, love, and understanding. I don't buy that whole God is going to punish you line. Sort of contradicts the whole forgiveness thing, don't you think?