Is it a religion?

People who are interested in sharing their religious views with you are rarely interested in sharing yours.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(San Diego Steve @ Jul 9 2006, 09:53 PM) [snapback]283675[/snapback]</div>

Close, but no cigar. May I refer you to Deuteronomy chapter 6 verses 5-9 and Deuteronomy chapter 11 verses 18-20:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Jul 10 2006, 03:06 PM) [snapback]283979[/snapback]</div>

Really? Not me, but then again, I am a preacher who doesn't hate gay people, and thinks they have a right to their life.

Among my Preacher friends, I am somewhat, the outcast, on that, I am afraid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 10 2006, 06:23 AM) [snapback]283767[/snapback]</div>

They are part of the Christian religion, and do believe that Jesus is the son of God. Where they differ from most other Christian denominations is that they do not believe in the trinity (i.e, that Jesus is God), and they believe that only their sect is truly saved. That is not the norm in Christianity, as most major denominations recognize all other "brothers in the faith" as eligible for God's favor. And belief in the trinity has been a basic, core Christian doctrine since about 325 AD.

I may be wrong on this, but I think they hold that the unsaved just cease to exist. There is a Prius owner who is a JW; perhaps they will chime in here (I haven't discussed theology with a JW since the mid-1970s, so my memory may be incomplete.)

You may have a misunderstanding of Evangelical theology as well; while it is true that Evangelicals will quote the "many are called, few are chosen" verses, they do not hold that only members of a particular church or denomination make the cut because of that membership. Instead, they say that every denomination has saved and unsaved people in it, and its the person's personal relationship with God that matters, not their membership in an organization.

JWs can be wonderful people, just like all other people. The thing that concerns me is the cavalier attitude toward a deeply held belief they have in their evangelism, with the stated intent of occupying them so they don't bother others. They don't bother you if you politely tell them you're not interested, so I don't see why there is a need for lying. Its not so hard to be respectful of other's beliefs, even if you disagree.

I don't have a quarrel with you specifically in this thread; you seem open to listening to them because you share a basic core value, and that makes the basis of any interesting relationship. And I don't think you would ridicule them by action with a cynical attempt to waste their time.

Among other Christian sects who are pacifists, the Society of Friends (Quakers) are probably the most mainstream in their theology. I am a real fan of some of their beliefs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 9 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]283515[/snapback]</div>

I don't think they ended up in prison just because they were consciencious objectors the USA had laws forbidding that at the time. Probably one of the most famous cases being Desmond Doss. He never touched a gun and still managed to win the "Medal of Honor" he died just recently.

Wildkow

p.s. He preferred to be known as a consciencious cooperator.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_doss.html

http://www.medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss1.htm

http://www.desmonddoss.com/

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 10 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]284244[/snapback]</div>

In other words, they are unitarians. In the very early days of the Christian church unitarians were sought out and brutally murdered by the trinitarians. The "might makes right" argument.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 10 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]284244[/snapback]</div>

You are correct on this. They share this belief with the Seventh-Day Adventists, and perhaps a few others. The Adventists, BTW, are ovo-lacto-vegetarians and at least those in Fargo are marvellous cooks. Around 1990 or 1991 I attended their services for a month or two, hoping to recruit members to the local peace group, and they always invited me to their potluck lunches, which were wonderful.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 10 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]284244[/snapback]</div>

You are probably right that they do not claim that only their denomination is saved, however, they do claim that many denominations are damned. The Pentacostal chaplain at Sandstone FCI told me flat-out that I am going to hell, specifically because I believe in evolution. He insisted that my atheism was forgivable, but my belief in evolution was not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 10 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]284244[/snapback]</div>

In this I have changed. In my late teens and early 20's I regarded them as pests, and my intention was to play with them, inventing logical, if pointless, arguments, so as to keep them as long as possible, thereby reducing the amount of time they'd spend pestering others. I honestly considered that I was doing a public service. And it was a game for me.

Since then I have become far more interested in learning about what they (and others) believe. Comparitive religions is an interesting field. I am by no means a scholar, but I am an interested lay person. While I believe that all religion is nonsense, I have a genuine curiosity about what other people believe and why.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 10 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]284244[/snapback]</div>

The Quakers are among the Christians I respect most, for their pacifism and their respect for all people. They (along with the Unitarians) were very active in the abolition movement and the underground railway. They refused to participate in the extermination of the American Indians. They were instrumental in founding the Fellowship of Reconciliation, the oldest anti-war organization in the U.S. (though the organization is international) and I think the principal faith-based anti-war organization in the U.S.

I'm sorry to say I know almost nothing of their theology. I imagine them to be universalists. I have a pacifist friend who was raised Quaker, and recently converted to catholicism, but who (against Catholic doctrine) is a universalist. (I don't know why this person converted, since she disagrees with virtually every doctrine of the Catholic Church. I think she enjoys the ritual, which is absent from Friends' meetings.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 10 2006, 02:52 PM) [snapback]284091[/snapback]</div>

You are absolutely correct... forgot about that, although I should have known it. Guess it's time to break out my teffilin (ok, I spelling these hebrew words is hard).

Thanks for the correction.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(San Diego Steve @ Jul 11 2006, 07:45 PM) [snapback]284753[/snapback]</div>

You have tefillin? I am impressed. I have a set that belonged to my grandfather. However, I have not put them on since I became Bar Mitzvah decades ago.

I do remember the words of V'Ahavta (Deuteronomy chapter 6) from the high holidays and the occasional Shabbat services, though. Since I am fluent in Hebrew, it was a no brainer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 11 2006, 08:15 AM) [snapback]284408[/snapback]</div>

I don't think it would be correct to call them unitarians, although they share that single aspect of unitarian belief. Did you know there are some who think that Jefferson became a Unitarian before his death? I think Gary Wills believes this (you would enjoy his books, I think).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 11 2006, 08:15 AM) [snapback]284408[/snapback]</div>

One of the problems in dealing with any group, religious, political or social, is that a member or leader may say something that leads people to believe the entire group believes that thing. There is no Christian denomination that has, as its doctrine, that belief in evolution consigns you to hell. There is also no shortage of ignorant Christians out there, so you can always find a nut-burger who will say almost anything.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 11 2006, 08:15 AM) [snapback]284408[/snapback]</div>

The Quakers started as slave traders in the Colonies before they had a debate about slavery and decided it couldn't be justified by declaring blacks sub-humans (interestingly, this was the position of the Catholic Church from the re-emergence of the slave trade as a racial trade in the 1400 or 1500's, with Papal Bulls promising excommunication for any Catholic who participated in it).

Fox, the originator of the religion, stated that each person had a bit of God inside, an "inner light", that you could appeal to, and that each person has a desire to respond to that appeal. Its a very ennobling kind of belief.

They are trinitarians ... and most of that murderous stuff happened in the 4th century, so the Unitarians are safe now.

 

I've got two tricks for the "J-dubs" as we call them -

1. Have someone scream out - THERE IS NO GOD - repeatedly in the background

2. After looking though the peep hole and seeing it is them, smear Ketchup on your mouth and down you neck. Turn the light down real low...and answer the door...never making eye contact...and looking nervously past them as if someone is going to coming running up. This one also works great if you do the Ketchup trick while holding your pet.

Somehow both get you "black listed" and you don't see that tribe anymore.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Jul 11 2006, 10:23 PM) [snapback]284825[/snapback]</div>

Earlier you said that the Quakers do not believe in the trinity, and you repeat here that "they share that one aspect of unitarian belief." I used lower-case for "unitarian" as I was speaking of that one belief. Upper case "Unitarian" would have refered to the denomination.

But then later (above) you say they are trinitarians. I was just going by what you had said. I don't actually know whether they are trinitarians or unitarians. But it's got to be one or the other because I don't think any Christians are binarytarians or quadrotarians.

The Christian churches only stopped killing people over minor (as well as major) points of dogma when they lost the political power to do so. The emergence of the commercial class as an important political force shifted political power from the clergy to the civil authorities, and the churches lost the power to run the civil affairs of the nations or to compell people to belong to any specific official denomination. The U.S. government was an early manifestation of the most extreme example of this loss of political power by the church. But it was still a struggle. And Christians still discriminate against non-Christians and against each other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jul 11 2006, 08:28 PM) [snapback]284769[/snapback]</div>

Of course I do... what good jewish boy wouldn't??

I have a set from my grandfather too. May go back a generation before that. It's actually at my parents house, but I was going to get them amongst other things in a few weeks as they are moving. I haven't used them since my bar mitzva either.

 

I shouldn't even address some of these responses, but I'll just say this: anyone who takes pleasure in jerking us around, or wasting our time, is the REAL "nut job".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 12 2006, 08:40 AM) [snapback]284971[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, I wasn't clear which group I was speaking of in both cases. JWs are NOT trinitarians, Quakers are trinitarians.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 12 2006, 08:40 AM) [snapback]284971[/snapback]</div>

There are different beliefs in the nature of God than the trinitarian/unitarian approach, including modalists. But you are right that most Christians are trinitarians.

I think you are overstating the persecution numbers; most people are surprised to find out that the Inquisition "only" tried and executed around 300 people for heresy. The reason they think it is much higher is that the church also participated in the deaths of some 300,000 others in the witch burnings in Europe, but that was a case of Christians killing suspected non-Christians, and not killing on doctrinal grounds. That's not much consolation to the 300,000, of course, and doesn't excuse what I think is essentially correct in your post, that civil power combined with religious power is a deadly combination.

There's an interesting book by Baylor Prof of Social Sciences Rodney Stark titled "The Victory of Reason". You would hate it, though. But, it challenges the conventional wisdom that the rise of the merchant class and economic freedom happened after the Reformation. He actually believes, and makes a strong argument for the idea that the birth of the merchant class and the beginning of economic freedom was in the city-states of mideval times. (That's not why you would hate it; you would hate the book because it is friendly to Christianity ... see my review at my blog http://frankhagan.com/blog/2006/05/03/fait...-to-have-faith/ if you want more of why I don't think you should read it.)

 

George Bernard Shaw said that the only thing wrong with Christianity is that nobody has ever tried it. While there have been occasional individuals and small groups that have tried it, I basically agree with Shaw.

The Catholic Worker Movement (no connection to the Catholic Church, and generally frowned upon by the Church, though it counts many Catholic priests among its members) founded by Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin is an example of people trying Christianity. (Note that the CW is not an organization. It is a philosophy. There is no institutional structure, and every CW house is completely independent.)

I think that Christianity is an excellent idea and I am all for it. My quarrel is with people and institutions (especially churches) that take the name of Christian/Christianity and use it as an excuse to practice the exact opposite: they judge other people, hoard wealth, refuse to share what they have, are vindictive, they wage war, they spread their beliefs through violence rather than example, they place more importance on their own property than on the lives of others, they place more importance on the things of this world than on those of the supposed "next" world, etc.

I have the utmost respect and love for anyone who actually practices a Christian lifestyle.

 

If some Prians are Driuds and all Druids are agnostics. Which of the following statements are true.

1. All Prians are agnostics.

2.Some agnostics are Prians

3. The dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac was up all night pondering- Is there really a doG?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 13 2006, 10:26 AM) [snapback]285606[/snapback]</div>

As a Preacher, I am not a fan of those who "that take the name of Christian/Christianity and use it as an excuse to practice the exact opposite: they judge other people, hoard wealth, refuse to share what they have, are vindictive, they wage war, they spread their beliefs through violence rather than example, they place more importance on their own property than on the lives of others, they place more importance on the things of this world than on those of the supposed "next" world, etc."

So, maybe there is one or two of us out there.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 10 2006, 09:23 AM) [snapback]283767[/snapback]</div>

There is this great thing called secular humanistic jusiasm which is judiasm minus religion. Basicaly the heratage and culture without religion. I would like to check out a congregation, but unfortunatly we do not have one in cleveland yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jul 12 2006, 10:40 AM) [snapback]284971[/snapback]</div>

:huh: does this include the current administration?