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Just Another HV Battery Thread and Experiments

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by TMR-JWAP, Oct 8, 2017.

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  1. MTL_hihy

    MTL_hihy Active Member

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    Never tried those apps, pretty cool. I may need to find myself an android phone just to give it a whirl myself with the HiHy.
     
    #41 MTL_hihy, Oct 19, 2017
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  2. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Fred,

    I honestly like that idea. Unfortunately, I don't have a grid charger/discharger set up and I'm not able to take my car out of service for that amount of time. BUT, I have enough spare parts that I could do this even after its removed from the car. I'd just construct a rig to hold the battery, ductwork and fan on a workbench. Do one full cycle and then put it back in the car for testing. Then do it over again but maybe three cycles. Doing it on a work bench would even allow visual inspection. I could easily set the fan up to pump air into the bottom plenum so the cover could remain removed for the entire cycle(s)

    Anyone have a charge/discharge setup they'd like to volunteer on a temporary basis? We could have some (almost) real time independent data. I could even do this on a couple batteries. I'm pretty sure I have some untouched Gen 2 batteries in the shop. I'd even pay for the shipping both ways.
     
    #42 TMR-JWAP, Oct 19, 2017
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  3. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I originally ran into the same problem. I have a company issued iphone, so I gave my Galaxy S3 to my son when his phone broke. Then a fellow forum member I was working with suggested these apps to me. I'm not a hi-tech phone app kind of guy, but he hooked me up with a refurb S3 that was unused and got me started. I bought a high capacity battery for it, loaded the apps and started playing. There's a lot more out there that I haven't tried yet, but I'm slowly working toward it.
     
    #43 TMR-JWAP, Oct 19, 2017
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  4. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    @jeff652 this looks like an opportunity to collect some good real-world data on your products.
     
    #44 Prodigyplace, Oct 19, 2017
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  5. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I have at least two 2009 Altima/Camry batteries that are 100% untouched since removal from wrecks this summer. It would be easy to use those modules to build a couple Prius batteries to do some before and after testing. 100% independent and everything posted. I have no dog in this fight.
     
    #45 TMR-JWAP, Oct 19, 2017
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  6. Fred_H

    Fred_H Misoversimplifier

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    (edit: If jeff652 doesn't provide a loaner, )I have just a simple HA Prolong charger, but it would not be sensible to send it back and forth from here. I would buy another new one and have it sent directly to you, if you promise to occasionally lend it to another needy PriusChatter. Perhaps @jeff652 could recommend the most suitable model and give a shipping time estimate?
     
    #46 Fred_H, Oct 19, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
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  7. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    I was hoping Jeff might lend one in exchange for usage of the data.
     
    #47 Prodigyplace, Oct 19, 2017
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  8. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Another interesting thing is that I have two other batteries I could use for standards. I have a 2013 from a Prius V wreck that had 20,901 miles on it and I have a ~24k(iirc) mile 2016 prius battery. I plan to build Gen 2 batteries with them anyway, so it would be easy to get the info from them to use for comparison.

    I'll mention one AMAZING thing while I'm here, that has just blown my mind. I have a 2006 Prius battery that I acquired well over a year ago. The modules are 102H8A13xxxx It has one bad module. I did 4 or 5 cycles on the modules at that time and put it on a shelf (tagged on 10/14/2016), intending to part it out. I never got around to it. I took it off the shelf and started cycling it a day or two after I installed the Falcon battery in my car. These modules averaged 2855 mah on the initial discharge, AFTER SITTING ON A SHELF OVER A YEAR !!! They averaged 6265 mah on the first full cycle and 6404 mah on the 5th cycle. Those are great readings for any year modules, much less 2006. The battery installed in Pete's car was built using 2013 modules which averaged 6216 mah. And that battery rocks.

    I have a 2009 battery I cycled about a month ago, that had been sitting in a parts car quite a while. The modules averaged ~1100 mah on the initial discharge, 4259 mah on the first full cycle and 4749 mah on the last full cycle. These are the kind of modules that are perfect for doing individual/low multiple module replacements on batteries that aren't able to be balanced prior to putting back in service. They are very likely to be close to the average capacity of a typical used battery. Maybe I should install one of them in block 9 of our experiment pack to see if that block becomes more in-line with the other 13 blocks??????????? Sometimes a lower capacity battery can actually make the assembly more reliable.

    I think my work list just got bigger..........sigh..........

    And my wife wonders why I drive my Prius around with no interior panels in the rear and only the bottom of the back seat installed?
     
    #48 TMR-JWAP, Oct 19, 2017
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  9. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    Is the 2016 Prius battery Ni-MH or Li-Ion? Most US Trims are Li-Ion.
    The Ni-MH modules work in older generation. Toyota claims they used a better quality nickel in the newer modules.
     
    #49 Prodigyplace, Oct 19, 2017
  10. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    It is NiMH. The manufacture date on the modules is Feb 2016 iirc. They are externally identical to the Gen2 and 3 modules.
     
    #50 TMR-JWAP, Oct 19, 2017
  11. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    @TampaPrius.com has put 2016 modules in a Gen 2 Prius, IIRC
     
    #51 Prodigyplace, Oct 19, 2017
  12. Fred_H

    Fred_H Misoversimplifier

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    Personally, I think it's more interesting to continue to study the results of the module swap with a random replacement module, like the typical DIYer in a hurry might do.
     
    #52 Fred_H, Oct 19, 2017
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  13. MTL_hihy

    MTL_hihy Active Member

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    Yes, I guarantee it will. This is why I always suggest doing both capacity and load testing for rebuilding purposes. You want to match them all as closely as possible with the larger capacity (better performing) modules towards the center (because heat generated towards the center of the pack over time will degrade them the most, like flipping over a parabola). It's just as bad to have one module far better than the rest as it is to have one far worse because the ECU works on voltage differentials. Battery voltages should march back and forth under load more or less in line with one another if all is working well and that's pretty much what you have graphed above.

    Great job with the data BTW, love seeing your results.
     
    #53 MTL_hihy, Oct 20, 2017
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  14. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    I did exactly that, except that the "random" module was from same-year with lower mileage and a cooler climate. Because the modules MUST be "hugged" during charging, I did not cycle it to gather capacity data prior to replacing the DOA module #6 in our pack. So far, it is back to like new performance.
     
    #54 05PreeUs, Oct 21, 2017
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  15. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    Well, for me, have just downloaded the apps. I'm going to try them om my ELM327 Bluetooth obd(I know that's mpt the one the developer requested to be used. Would try, it then if it doesn't work, would get the $50 obd link.
     
    #55 Dxta, Oct 21, 2017
  16. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    How do you decipher the battery year of manufacture, with the codes on the battery modules, please?
     
    #56 Dxta, Oct 21, 2017
  17. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    The first four digits of the serial number printed on the module.

    The first 2 digits are the days of the month. (1-31)
    The second digit is the month (1-9, X,Y,Z = January through September, X=October, Y=November, Z=December)
    The fourth is the year. A (1999) through R (2016) and so on

    So, if the first 4 digits of a module is 131R it would be January 13, 2016

    The Gen 2 battery housings also have a similar code on the outer sticker, except the Year code is 2 years earlier. "L" on a module is 2010, but "L" on a case sticker is 2008.
     
    #57 TMR-JWAP, Oct 21, 2017
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  18. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Just wondering whether that is correct, because the documentation I have shows that the date code convention is consistent between battery case and modules, i. e. a year code of "L" means 2008 on both the battery case and on the module.
     
    #58 dolj, Oct 22, 2017
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  19. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    Appreciate your replies Sir!
     
    #59 Dxta, Oct 22, 2017
  20. Fred_H

    Fred_H Misoversimplifier

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    Thanks John, that's a good example of why TMR-JWAP's experiment is so interesting to me. Normally the people who gather all the capacity data go ahead and thoroughly cycle, match and balance all the modules. Then they have a pack that produces normal test results. But from the people who just swap in an uncharacterized module and maybe do a little balancing and hope for the best, we seldom see detailed test data of what is actually happening within their batteries.
     
    #60 Fred_H, Oct 22, 2017
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