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Admit it, you're rooting for higher gas prices right?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by burritos, Jul 13, 2006.

  1. gschoen

    gschoen Member

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    It's believed that OPEC countries are pumping at full capacity, despite what they might be saying. With the high prices, they'd be crazy not to take advantage of the situation. When they announce they have more capacity, it's posturing to keep influence.

    To lower the price of oil, either supply needs to increase or demand decrease. If supply increases, likely demand would increase to meet supply, as oil is (currently) that type of commodity. To decrease demand, a global recession or major crash of a developing economy (China & India, of course) which would lower prices. So far, tensions in the middle east haven't reduced supply, any price flux would be temporary by speculators trying to cash in on recent events. To impact prices, conflict would have to interfere with the global supply of oil, like global sanctions on Iran, for instance. (USA doesn't import oil from Iran, but other countries do, affecting global prices.)
     
  2. Smooth Operator

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(skruse @ Jul 13 2006, 05:52 PM) [snapback]285955[/snapback]</div>
    That's fine for those of you who don't live in a rain forest like I do. :)
     
  3. savaged

    savaged New Member

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    Careful what you ask for folks. There is a heck of a lot more riding on fuel prices in this economy than our simple commutes to and from work. It IS the economy. It is your job, your lifestyle, and a pervasive element of this country's functioning. Yes, we need to explore alternative energy.... but it ain't gonna happen overnight - but economic collapse can.
     
  4. Smooth Operator

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 13 2006, 06:55 PM) [snapback]285986[/snapback]</div>
    I am sympathetic to people who are unavoidably economically disadvantaged as a result of not having the capacity to be competitive in an employment marketplace and live in a country with inadequate social supports.

    I have less sympathy for those who are eminently employable (say they have a master degree) who choose to pursue higher education, (say a PhD in pharmacology) and then plead poverty. I don't view that as being poverty, I view it as being deferring income.

    When I was doing my degrees, I experienced a very low standard of living. I couldn't afford a car at all, let alone a late model, high tech car. Sometimes I couldn't afford bus fare. But I didn't complain and don't complain now. I was simply making an investment that paid off over time.

    When we later bought a house, we both worked, living on the lower, public employee salary, while using the higher income exclusively for paying the debt on the house. Again, that was an example, not of living in poverty, but of investing in the future.

    Don't get me wrong. I don't know your circumstances at all and they may be very different from mine. But, just as some debt is good and some is bad... some low income is due to unavoidable poverty and other low income is a planned investment.
     
  5. aaf709

    aaf709 Ravenpaw of ThunderClan

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Smooth Operator @ Jul 14 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]286275[/snapback]</div>
    I'll agree there. I just don't want a "$5 a gallon to teach the Hummer owners a lesson" blanket statement. There are others that will suffer too.......and it will cost them more. I mean who's gonna suffer more, someone who makes $80,000 with a Hummer (and doesn't need it) or someone who makes $30,000 with a 1987 Chevy (which is the only car they can afford at the moment)?
     
  6. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    I'd be willing to bet that this country could cut its demand fairly substantially w/o shocking the economy. There's a tremendous amount of waste that could be trimmed. Obviously a more efficient transportation fleet (including LDVs) would really help. That, of course, takes some time to implement, but simply driving more efficiently and less often (where possible) would be a start. There will be a lot more telecommuting so sure.
     
  7. SSimon

    SSimon Active Member

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    i believe gas prices should be higher, not to teach people that drive larger vehicles a lesson, but because it is a limited resource and one that we are using at unsustainable rates. higher prices may alter society's use of this resource. as someone earlier mentioned, if people move away from this type of fuel into alternative means, the economy will hopefully be compensated. this is my view of prices for water as well. my water bill is $20.00 for 2 months of use. $20.00 for 6,000 gallons. it's ridiculous and it's the very reason society can see fit to waste it. $20.00 will only afford you six lattes at starbucks, no?
     
  8. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(savaged @ Jul 14 2006, 12:38 PM) [snapback]286273[/snapback]</div>
    Every Hegemony in history has come to an end. Is American immune to this historical inertia?
     
  9. sharkmeister

    sharkmeister Junior Member

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    Technically, maybe we should be rooting for gas prices to go up because it accelerates the Return on Investment (ROI) from spending ~$5-10k more than the cost of a nice Corolla.

    Realistically, though, I don't want to see ANY prices go up, particularly for mandatory type stuff like gasoline.

    I don't really need an 8 Gig USB memory thingie, but if I don't buy gas I can't get to work!

    BTW, I like the 8 Gig thingie, it holds my entire music collection with room left over for work stuff.
     
  10. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Smooth Operator @ Jul 14 2006, 01:38 PM) [snapback]286275[/snapback]</div>
    i never asked for sympathy, and your assumption of such irritates me. i'm just saying that i'm personally not rooting for high gas prices because it would make tight times tighter. i'm not complaining, i'm stating my position on the issue. i'll enjoy it while it's cheap, thanks. i know it's going up but i don't have to like it.
    we're not living in poverty, and i never said we are, but we do have some recent large and unavoidable (health, conditions of his employment, health-related lost income) expenses that aren't related to my academic path that we could not have predicted last year when we chose to buy a car. so no, you don't know my situation.
     
  11. daronspicher

    daronspicher Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Smooth Operator @ Jul 14 2006, 12:38 PM) [snapback]286275[/snapback]</div>
    Are you saying that ****I**** shouldn't tax the crap out of you, your college educated beee-hind, and your high paying job just because at the end of the year, you make a decent living now?

    Are you saying that you made a choice to pay the piper for a period of time so that you could hopefully reap the rewards of having worked hard in college and be able to provide a home for your family? Should I respect that decision, or should I tax you even harder yet?

    The mentality around here is that you should not be getting a tax break. You are stinkin rich and that ain't fair. You are the problem....

    I did it too... 2 parents that never went to college. I worked hard, lived on nothing, got a college degree and went to work. I started at $5/hr with that degree and worked hard at my jobs and have come to where I think I do ok now. We've positioned ourselves so my wife can be a stay at home mom when we have kids, but to do that, we lived 3 years in a dump of an apartment and then built our own house (as in hammers, saws, weeknights and weekends). We bought our Prius with a game plan for payoff in 6 months, we don't carry credit card debt. We made a lot of choices to do with less for a time in order get to where we are right now.

    I can imagine there are some folks who are in a position to build up debt, there is no avoiding it. I know that most people who have built up debt do it because they choose to buy things beyond their ability to pay for them. Those are the same people that will tell you that you should not have a tax break. You are rich and you don't deserve one.

    There are a lot of people who made other choices. Some made choices to work at the sporting goods store and 'party' with their friends at the lake during those years you went to college. Now, they still have that job, the pay hasn't kept up with inflation, they married young as soon as their girlfriend got pregnant and have been bouncing through life from paycheck to paycheck building up car, home and CC debt ever since. They think is sucks when you get the same tax break that they do.

    As if someone handed you free money or you somehow were sneaky enough to get the easy thing. No one was there with you in the library for those 5 years studying chemistry, but they are here now wanting a piece of your success.

    Kudo's to you, and everyone who made something of themselves on purpose, by choice.
     
  12. mssmith95

    mssmith95 Michael

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Smooth Operator @ Jul 14 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]286275[/snapback]</div>
    I agree again with Galaxee...we don't need your sympathy. I have the degree, my wife has the degree, we make a good living, we have no debt (but we are dealing with some serious stuff right now)...but we are not going to risk our children's future by going into debt because people want gas prices to increase because some people think they have done so much by buying a Prius!

    As for your "investing in the future"...your example is hardly typical. Millions of people work their axxes off just to break even. They too try to build for the future...it is just not as easy as you make it sound. You were suffering while "doing your degrees"...are you kidding? How many people can't even afford college, let alone "degrees"? (you made it a point to use the plural) How is it suffering to be provided with the opportunity to get your degrees and potentially earn that higher income down the road?

    I do agree with Daronspicher that there is nothing wrong with being proud of your choices and your accomplishments...and no one should doubt that you did work hard to get where you did...and you should not have to pay others for your success...however, just because you can afford prices increases doesn't make them right.

    You know the saying "live a little in my shoes"? I think it fits here. It is a very naive viewpoint to think that people can always choose a path like you did... sometimes your situation determines your opportunities.

    Think about this...the higher the gas prices, the higher prices on a lot of items...the less disposable income for millions of consumers...the less they spend will mean less sales for many companies...which leads to companies finding ways to cut the bottom-line...and hopefully they will cut but cutting loose high earning, multiple degree people...after all, they have built for the future and should be ok...right?

    Well, I guess if the prices do increase your position over some will be even higher (at least your perceived position) and your "suffering" story will have an even greater effect.

    Hey, unless I somehow benefit directly from an increase in fuel prices, why would I want them...and why would I want others to suffer as well?
     
  13. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kingofgix @ Jul 14 2006, 10:12 AM) [snapback]286182[/snapback]</div>
    Boy, you really do believe everything you're fed from the media don't you? Do you really think India and China (assuming that's whom you're referring to) suddenly, over the last year or two just up and "found ways" to "use" more fuel? Did their respective populations, suddenly, as a whole, somehow gained a collective consciousness?






    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 14 2006, 11:52 AM) [snapback]286223[/snapback]</div>
    People were ranting and raving about EXACTLY the same things back then... EXACTLY.

    Furthermore, do you really think, it's not in "their" interest to cry "woe"? Envision yourself as an oil company, do you really think it's in your best interest to come out and say, "Hey, as it turns out, we miscalculated, our refineries aren't nearly at their REAL capacities, nor are our oil fields declining as much as we had originally thought, therefore, we are proud to infuse the market with all this extra oil and send gas prices (and our profits) right down to 1990 levels!"
     
  14. gschoen

    gschoen Member

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    Yes Squid, China & India just began using massive amounts of energy and raw materials in the past year or two. The rise of prices for oil, metals, and raw materials is a global conspiracy. Of course India & China couldn't possibly have the consciousness for economic growth!!!
     
  15. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    Squid, yes, they did. The USA has moved much of the manufacturing to China. The Three Gorges Dam is almost complete. The highway system they are building there rivals the AutoBahn. I saw a Chinese guy profiled on PBS who makes $20,000 a year and was approved for a $30,000 Passat. The government is subsidizing the cost of car loans in order to get their citizens on the road.

    On the tech side, much of that has gone to India. India is experiencing a boom similar to China, although not as large.

    Oh, wait, must be that liberal media lying to me! I bet the highway I saw on film was actually CGI! And, the "Made in China" sticker on everything I own is a giant con by the US government! It's really all still made here, really, it is! It's all a scam by the oil companies!

    Do you think Chinese people arrive to the factories from a rice paddy on an oxcart? Seriously? No, they drive cars and scooters, with gasoline prices subsidized by the government.

    There are three times as many Chinese and three times as many Indians as there are Americans. So, if each of them gets a motor scooter and uses 1/6 of the gasoline that we do, then overall, their consumption rate will be the same as ours, and compete for the oil on the open market. And if even 10% of them get cars? Uh oh, not enough oil...

    Either that, or it's all a lie, Squid. Everyone is colluding to dupe us into paying more for gasoline...

    Go get your F-150 while you still can.

    Nate

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mystery Squid @ Jul 14 2006, 02:53 PM) [snapback]286389[/snapback]</div>
    It IS in the oil companies' best interest, because their stock would go up, and their profits would go up.

    Read around the mms.gov website for a while. Another good one is rigzone.com.

    Do you honestly believe it's all a big conspiracy? OPEC just doesn't have the power anymore.

    Nate
     
  16. Salsawonder

    Salsawonder New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Smooth Operator @ Jul 14 2006, 10:38 AM) [snapback]286275[/snapback]</div>
    My son-in-law is thinking about leaving his civilian employment with the government because he can't stand the waste he sees there and his heart is not in it. His family does not support it because it is "good pay" and "secure".

    Kudos for anyone who works to improve their minds, be it a PhD or just taking courses at the Community College. Kudos for those who go for quality of life and not how much money can my wallet hold.

    The American Lifestyle of Excess is due for an overhaul and I don't believe that that time is so far away. I think I think I know which group of people will handle it better.
     
  17. Mystery Squid

    Mystery Squid Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 14 2006, 05:09 PM) [snapback]286401[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah, ok, like this is news? That sentence could have easily been shot out in 1984...




    Yes, and they all have buck teeth too and make great cooks... :rolleyes:



    No, not really a conspiracy. What I'M saying is how do you really know? We all know communications can be controlled seven ways to Sunday, now couple that with an industry that profits in the billions per quarter. They can, in essence, make you think exactly what they want you to think. Conspiracy, maybe, maybe not, I'm not an absolutionist ( :D ) so I'll never take anything off the table, but I will say I think there are waaaaaaay too many variables to account for, and I really doubt any "independent" entity can make any claim with a degree of certainty beyond maybe 50% with respect to this industry...

    Guess time will tell...
     
  18. ServoScanMan

    ServoScanMan Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 14 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]286401[/snapback]</div>
    That's exactly what I have been telling the guys at work for a year now. They just don't get it or understand. These are the same guys that made fun of me when I bought the Prius (and paid cash). All of a sudden they are beginning to ask questions. These guys probably goofed off in high school thinking they could get a good job and live the good life. Well, a job is not guaranteed. There is not a law in our country saying a company has to hire you. I was blessed with above average intelligence and growing up in a lower economic class (as far as America is concerned. I have lived in Europe and Africa when I was a kid). I was blessed with having the drive to take jobs no one else wanted, work my way thru school, and obtain two BS degrees. It just irks me when one of those guys makes a comment on how lucky I am to have the things we have (and it's all paid for). They don't know the continous effort we have made. I say 'we' now because I am blessed to have married a woman that has the same mindset about debt I do. Sorry about the rambling, I hope the guys wake up. We all need to work together to continue to live in the best country on the planet!
     
  19. SSimon

    SSimon Active Member

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    http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/oil.html

    here's an oil reserve analysis from the u.s. government. you guys trust them, don't you? ;)

    based on the numbers it looks like there's enough in reserve to keep us supplied for the next 1,000 years [/i]if
    demand doesn't increase.
     
  20. daronspicher

    daronspicher Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 14 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]286401[/snapback]</div>
    Yes, ox cart, bicycles, on foot, and on commuter trains.

    No, having a car, or even dreaming of having a car for the average Chinese person is not happening... no where near it.

    The big cities have taxi's and busses and traffic.. Sure, but the typical Chinese person, or the typical Chinese family does not have a car... and is not about to get one.

    Chinese farmers do not use tractors or motorized equiptment for the most part.

    Don't watch too much pbs, it can confuse you.



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Jul 14 2006, 04:09 PM) [snapback]286401[/snapback]</div>
    Isnt' it about 4 times...

    They are each in the 1.2 to 1.3 billion, we are almost to hit 300 million this fall?