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Error Code P0A90-604

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by der_Denis, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. der_Denis

    der_Denis Junior Member

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    Will be done for gen 2 in january/february. Planning to make it commercially available ;)
     
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  2. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    I have measured the voltage range of a Prius pack using a forced discharge and charge. The low was 195 volts and the high was 265 volts.

    Can your Lion pack handle that voltage range?

    Brad
     
  3. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    Learnt something new about that set up then.
    Any schematic or video you have of the whole setup, maybe I could try that someday?:D
     
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  4. der_Denis

    der_Denis Junior Member

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    The 64sXYp would be rather happy with that range of voltages (low 3.04v and high 4.14v). Mine pack however is 58s. This would be on the high voltage side at 4.56v per cell. It is way to much which will lead to overheat and possible self ignition and explosion. You definitely don't want that. Additionally, even more don't want to charge you prius original pack up to 265v. This corresponds to 1.57v per NiMH single cell. Since they are an automotive grade NiMH cells, they are designed for enormous amperage output and inputs (power density), but not for high voltage and high capacity (energy density). Thus 1.57 volts per Ni cell is absolutely not recommended and extremely dangerous (speaking out on my personal unfortunate experience: my old prius gen 1 got its cells charged up to 1.55 volt (not by design, but by an algorithm error), what caused a thermal runaway, boiling of the base electrolyte and an explosion of the pack; i had to scrap the car after that). Some of the latest Toyota's (Panasonic) NiMH cells are okey with up to 1.54v. All the older cells up to including the third gen prius and all of their's derivations should not experience more then 1.48 volt per cell.

    However, if you mean a peak charge/discharge that the pack may experience for a second or two while accelerating or decelerating, then it is fine, as the NiMH cell will exhibit somewhat a capacitor properties for some microseconds and will allow higher potential differences between the anode and cathode. Then the ion diffusion will take over and reduce the potential to its electrochemical potential. Sorry for the scientific terms, i work as an chemical engineer in a company that develops lithium batteries.
     
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  5. der_Denis

    der_Denis Junior Member

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    In two to three weeks i will try to post a video with the details.
     
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  6. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    Can this thermal runaway, and explosion thing also apply to NIMH pack? Have got a pack that a friend of mine reconditioned, but some fee days, or weeks, he was driving, and suddenly there was this "boom" at the battery pack.

    Out of curiosity, I ordered for the pack l, just for my inspection to know y it exploded.

    I'd do a thread on that, later. But what I saw shocked me:

    #voktage sense wires at one side of the pack were cut
    #block 1 of the pack got burnt in such a way that the module casings got melted. On that particular block, you've got lots of black signs of smoke there.
    #because of the excess pressure and temperature build up, the whole modules were bulged, with the compression rods, battery ECU bent.
    #only some of the middle modules weren't so much bulged(2, or 3).

    I'm still investigating y that happened.

    Here's my thoughts about it:
    The likely culprit might have being caused by the battery ECU overcharging the pack, causing tremendous temperature rise, from pressure build up, that caused the explosion.
    Another reason could be the or some of the modules shorted.

    My question is, weren't there supposed to be a sign from the car's HV ECU indicating an overcharged situation?

    What do you think could ha e happened?


    Dzta
     
  7. der_Denis

    der_Denis Junior Member

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    It certainly can and does. NiMH batteries are much less thermally stable in comparison to Lithium chemistries. If the cell has seen lower than 0.9 to 0.8 volts, a permanent partial capacity loss is guaranteed. If the cell has seen over 1.5 volts (open circuit voltage) there will be formation of cristal dendrites on the electrodes, what will lead to short circuit and thermal buildup, -> internal pressure increase -> explosion of the casing


    Here one needs to do a so called "PMA" test, Post Mortal Analyses. I think however, the tap voltage wires got blown up like fuses when the whole pack started to deform in order to prevent the voltage leakage from the individual modules onto the body. Additionally, those tap wires have an extremely weak metal bridge from the wire itself to the contact metal plate. Those wires hang under a slight tension therefore even under a slight change in geometry of the pack, the tap wires will lose their connection to the individual cells.

    The Prius ECU would have normally indicated the wrong cell/cells and would not have let the car to go into "Ready" Mode. The algorithms in the ECUs are, to some tinkers kind of annoying :), pretty strict and thus are safe.
    To me it looks like there was one or several cells which experience a long turn out-of-range voltage and was rebalanced and used in the pack.
    If so, then the HV ECUs will not be able to recognize a bad cell since it shows nominal voltages. However, may this call get warmed up during the ride, and then experience heavy charge (deceleration) / discharge (acceleration), the load resistance will strongly decrease (meaning if the cell is being charged it will get over its nominal charge profile very fast thus letting itself overcharged; beyond 1.6 volt) thus provoking the damages you've described.

    Another thing could be that the electrolyte got breached through the cell's case and got shortened onto the body. However this should have also provoked an error message on the dash. But it would not have caused the explosion of the pack.

    Interesting case btw.
    You could also try to replace the original NiMH cells with the 18650: the math is simple
    each NiMH module has 6x 1.2v cells = 7.2v
    two 18650 (say NMC chemistry as an example) will deliver 3.6v each, thus 2x3.6=7.2v
     
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  8. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    I'm currently working on a Camry hybrid 2008, and a Prius 2008. When I'm done, I'd dp a thread on the battery explosion. Please, when I finally do that thread, I'd like you contribute just as you've done now.


    Thanks so much


    Dxta
     
  9. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    You have obviously put a lot of thought into this. Every answer just raises more questions. So how are you going to protect your 58S pack from overcharge? Long down hills could peak the pack voltage well over the 243.6 volts your 58S pack is designed for.

    Are you charging the original NiMH pack to 243.6 volts with the added pack?


    The minimum and maximum voltages I measured works out to 1.16 volts to 1.58 volts per cell. That suggests that the limits I measured are absolutes programmed to protect the original NiMH pack. The minimum and maximum values could be held for just a few seconds by a forced charge and discharge.
     
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  10. der_Denis

    der_Denis Junior Member

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    Camry Hybrid is more powerful than Prius, awesome thing. I wish we had those in Germany.
    Good luck! :)
     
  11. der_Denis

    der_Denis Junior Member

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    Those are good points, thanks:

    I don't have to, while the HV ECU will force the MG1 to discharge the battery when the system voltage goes above 251 volts or so (above 1.49), thus i went the safe way to charge only up to 243,6v (1.45v NiMH cells and 4.2 Li cells).

    If i were to live on top of the mountain and drive down the hill with the fully charged battery, then yes, i'd have a short-turn overvoltage peaks into both of the batteries. On the other hand with the empty battery driving down the hill could almost top it up (keeping in mind the full capacity of both batteries 5.8 kWh lithium + usable 0.53 kHw NiMH), but it has to be a rather long drive down to generate almost 7 kWh of electricity (6.3 kWh + heat losses).

    Correct, they get charged simultaneously.

    Agree, the most extreme pulse (peak) charge/discharge values i've seen were 1.59 volts and 0.85 volts respectively.
     
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  12. swing

    swing Junior Member

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    Hi Dennis - I love this thread you started. I found it when searching for the P0A90-604 code that my 215k miles / 2007 experienced last week. It resulted in a sudden reduction of power and MIL / engine lites coming on. I rolled to a stop. Shut off car. Re-started and its been driving fine since (warning lites stayed on until i did the Techstream code read and cleared it today.
    This may have nothing to do with it, but I do have a freshly installed hymotion pack (sadly, i cant recall if it was engaged at the time)

    Today have found the tech repair document (at bottom), and wonder if it pertains to my situation. Im not sure where this plug the mention is located tho?

    And someone else mentioned that if connections are bad in certain connectors, it could also throw off the readings and cause the code - Can you or anyone tell me which "connectors" are involved in sensing this MG? The contacts have seen 125k miles and may indeed have contamination that might have cause the computer to sense MG stator winding problems that are actually just in the connections.
    Also - once the connections are cleaned: what is the way to test the MG - is it a simple milliohm meter test of the 3 thick wires in the inverter? And finally - can an MG on a G2 be replaced without removing the whole housing, like it can on a G1?



    https://share.qclt.com/%E4%B8%B0%E7%94%B0%E6%99%AE%E7%91%9E%E6%96%AF%E5%8E%9F%E5%8E%82%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87%E6%89%8B%E5%86%8Cpdf%E6%A0%BC%E5%BC%8F/repair%20manual/04pruisr/05/21bpm/0a90604.pdf
     
    #32 swing, Dec 18, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
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