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I'm now putting 20w50 in my Prius. Arrrrh!

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by uart, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Contrary to common belief (and I really don't know where the idea came from), the goal of lubrication is not pressure, but FLOW. Increasing oil weight will not improve flow, it will REDUCE it. Tests have been done and published on the topic and the flow of a pump goes down exponentially as pressure increases. Starving an engine of oil flow, is never a good idea.
     
  2. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    Different subject.
    THIS discussion is about oil LOSS, presumably due to worn rings and valve guide seals.
    Those are points where there is not SUPPOSED to be any flow.
     
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  3. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Actually, most oil pumps are essentially a constant flow device, up until the bypass pressure. After the bypass pressure is reached then of course flow is reduced, (as some of the flow is bypassed).

    The difference between a 30 weight and a 40 weight oil is nowhere near enough to cause it to go into bypass at normal operating temperature, though you are correct that it will cause it to go into bypass more readily at cold start temperatures. You may however be underestimating the effect of relative small temperature differences on reversing this situation.

    Believe it or not, a temperature difference as little as 4 or 5 C is enough to account for a one full grade difference in the oil at typical cold start temperatures. So for example a 5w30 oil at 0C would be a similar viscosity to a 5w40 at around 4 or 5 degrees C or a 10w40 at about 8 or 9 degrees C. If you think that I might be getting inadequate oil flow with 5w40 and ambient temperatures always above 10C, then please never drive your car at temperatures lower than 5C (with the recommended 5w30), as you WILL be in a worse situation.

    BTW, you can verify the above by taking a look at the widman viscosity calculator here: Graph your oils | Widman International
    Put in the following values to compare with the typical 5w30 and 10w30 oil data supplied there:
    5w40 : 79/13 (@ 40C/100C)
    10w40: 96/14.3 (@ 40C/100C)

    These are only typical values of course (these two are actually for Shell helix 5W40 and 10W40), as oil grades cover a range of values within each grade. Also, the widman calculator is only extrapolating based on typical oil viscosity index parameters, so the data should be interpreted as "typical" rather than an exact representation of any given brand oil.

    The bottom line is that oil grade requirement cannot be totally separated from ambient operating temperatures. I know that in the US most manufactures like to have a uniform oil grade specification (like the "one and only" correct grade), but in many other places manufactures often recommend a range of acceptable grades, based on expected ambient temperatures. For example the following oil chart was included in owners manual of my 2005 Prius (actual scan of my manual). This is the official Toyota (Australia) oil recommendation for my Prius. oilprius.png
     
    #23 uart, Oct 16, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  4. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    A couple things:

    1) Almost all OEMs use "Gerotor" style oil pumps, their flow is nothing close to constant. It is however, close to a linear function of speed at constant pressure, but significantly impacted by fluid viscosity.

    2) Since shortly after the internal combustion engine was invented, it has been recognized that most wear (or lubrication damage) occurs during COLD START and therefore the flow of a fluid (oil) at operating temperatures is largely irrelevant.

    Lastly, all pumps are rated in terms of inlet-to-outlet pressure differential, with thick (heavy) cold oil, you can pull a VACUUM on the suction side of the pump, further reducing it's capacity.
     
  5. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    How does one gauge the quality of a used or failing PCV?

    I've taken one off (rattled it) and cleaned it (sprayed some solvent and only solvent came out), then after checking for proper air flow at both ends I also checked for oil inside either end of the rubber connection hose (looked dry enough)... figuring it was still in good working order I stuck it back together again.

    Are there any additional tests or tools the one should be aware of?
     
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    @uart The Australian 3rd gen Prius shows an oil grade chart similarly diverse to what you've posted, albeit with addition of the two thinner oils.

    upload_2018-1-21_13-9-7.png

    There's a typo, no minus symbols showing in the left end of C scale, but suffice to say: 10W30 is acceptable to -18C (0F).
     
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  7. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    Well, for me, I have being using the 20W-50 for sometime now, and haven't noticed any significant oil shortages.

    Initially, we were using synthetic Mobil 1, but noticed significant oil shortages, becuae of its thinness.

    We switched to a more heavier oil 20W-50, and oil consumption reduced prior to every oil change.

    This continued for some months, before I realised it was an engine wear and tear thing. Had to overhaul the engine, and that was it. I'm not saying thatight be same with you.

    So my ???s to everyone here is, is there any problem that could arise from continuous use of such oils?

    In my view, using such synthetic oils, asides the fuel economy savings, and the cold start stuff it takes care of in winterized places like the the USA and maybe Europe, in don't think this oil has issues considering its usage in the middle east, and Africa (Lagos). We don't have snow to warrant the cold start problems you guys encounter.

    When using such oils over here, we don't allow the oils to last more than 3000miles in an engine, since its just mineral oil, and not synthetic.
     
  8. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    I have never had any luck "testing" a PCV valve, either by the rattle test or any other. They are like $10 and super easy to replace, so that is the first thing I would suggest if oil consumption is an issue.
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Just for giggles replace every 100K? On the assumption it's getting varnish coated, or spring could be fatigued, something like that.
     
  10. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    I have had the springs fail, orifice get carboned up, etc. The typical service interval is 100-120k depending on the manufacturer, but most always overlooked at "tune-up time".
     
  11. Bunce

    Bunce Active Member

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    Given your expected temperatures I'd be tempted do a drain and fill with 20w50 High mileage synthetic, just so you can get a clearer result and see if works.
     
  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Keep in mind, any oil with the description "high mileage" probably means it has additives to swell rubber seals, and once you get into such oil, you need to stick with it: returning to regular oil the rubber may shrink back more than at the outset.
     
  13. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    NO.
     
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    On a Gen2 I'd start with Mobil-1 High Mileage 5W-30 and then they have a couple heavier up to 10W-30 and 10W-40.

    Australia may be pricey but here in USA not bad at all. I believe it is formulated to reduce leaks by additives but also by heavying up the base stock somehow.
     
  15. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Yes obviously it's a function of speed, but I'm pretty sure that everyone else here understood that we were talking about flow vs viscosity, not flow vs speed. The flow is also a function of the size of the oil pump, but that's not relevant here either.
     
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  16. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    Actually high mileage oils seem a bit scarce here. I did look quite a bit, but in the end the only thing I could find locally was the Valvoline Maxlife 20w50. That's why I blended it with the thinner fuel conserving oiI that was causing my increased consumption. Anyway it worked ok, I only blended in about a liter and it reduced to oil consumption without making it too thick.

    Anyway, that oil is drained out now (as of about December) and I'm back to running the usual 5W30 in the more robust A3/B4 rating rather than the GF5 fuel economy rating.
     
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  17. uart

    uart Senior Member

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    I'm just updating this thread with a new development in the oil consumption situation. I was going to wait until I had a bit more data, but basically it seems that after having the hybrid battery replaced (with a new one from Toyota) that my oil consumption has dropped very dramatically.

    I'm putting this here because I had posted elsewhere about my recent sudden decline in oil consumption, and I don't want people to jump to the conclusion the just because I blended a little bit of high mileage oil (which is supposed to condition seals) on my previous oil change interval that it's caused this reduction. I accept that it might have played some small part, but I really think it's more related to the new hybrid battery. It's really quite noticeable that the engine doesn't need to work as hard now (with the new battery) and in particular it doesn't need to spin the engine to dump charge when I descend big hills.

    What happened was that late Nov last year we had the main battery replaced. A week or two later I changed the oil because it was due (no additives, just the same 5w30 that I usually use) and weirdly it has hardly used any oil since that change. Unfortunately it's hard to pinpoint exactly why this has happened because over that time three things have been different to normal.

    1. The new HV battery.
    2. The fact that I'd had some of that high mileage oil in there over the previous 10,000 km.
    3. My wife was on holidays and the Prius (her Prius) wasn't driven on the same terrain etc as normal (though still driven nearly 4000 km).

    Number three is back to normal now, so I should be able to rule that out (or in) as the cause over the next few weeks, but there's not enough kms yet for me to say whether this had any effect.

    Anyway, it was so unexpected to have the oil consumption suddenly reduce to almost nothing on this Prius after 13 years and nearly 320,000 km. Pleased that it happened, but still not totally sure why. :)
     
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  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Everybody loves a mystery... :sneaky:
     
  19. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...sorry about the batt UART I just heard that...I know you got your money's worth out of it.
     
  20. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Actually, most oil pumps are essentially a constant flow device, up until the bypass pressure.
    Click to expand...

    A couple things:
    1) Almost all OEMs use "Gerotor" style oil pumps, their flow is nothing close to constant. It is however, close to a linear function of speed at constant pressure.

    You really don't get it do you? Flow is NOT constant, when you increase viscosity, flow drops exponentially.