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Self-driving Uber car kills pedestrian in Tempe, AZ

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by pilotgrrl, Mar 19, 2018.

  1. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    It's all part of God's plan ;)

    Wow, has this topic gone every which way. Lots of people jaywalk, and I've seen people intentionally walking down the street a lot when the sidewalk is a few feet away. I think it's just not cool to use a sidewalk. It tends to be the kids mostly, younger people, usually with a phone in their hands.

    I could never imagine autonomous cars being viable, especially given the constraints. People tend to think they would like technology to do it all for them, but it does have downsides.
     
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  2. nednvermont

    nednvermont Member

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    I love to drive, and do not want to let that go... until I have to, due to cognitive decline and failing reflexes. I just hope that the move to autonomous vehicles remain a choice. Who knows... when I'm 90 I may love the choice to climb into an autonomous car and mumble to a Siri-type "take me to the nearest grocery store." May the technology continue to improve.

    I'm sad for the loss of the woman's life... and it's always been a dangerous world. Sounds as if she made a sudden erratic decision without looking where she was going.

    The piece about this thread that is most disturbing (to me) is the attempt by manufacturers to limit liability through changes in the law.
     
  3. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    There is a big difference between what people imagine, what companies are trying to do, and what they will be able to do.
    Please don't take imaginings about the future as a fact about the present.
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That is more than what many smaller planes have.
     
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  5. nednvermont

    nednvermont Member

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    You are absolutely right...
     
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  6. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

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    When we first started to explore space, we asked several test pilots if they wanted to be a part of it. It was the being "asked", that made the difference and eventually history. Those that have served and continually serve our country, willingly do so (and I humbly salute them, and wish them the best upon return of tour). As a human race, we should never go beyond the consideration of human sacrifice in order to make something better. If we do, we have lost humanity and the reason for it. If we do, we truly are no longer human.
     
  7. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Automation as it applies to this conversation may be good as an assist in "controlled areas" some day soon, not as a total replacement. Even autopilot and autoland on aircraft requires continually certified and trained human pilots, continually certified and trained human ATC, continually certified and functional checked aircraft equipment, and ground systems that could never be practically utilized on every street and highway.

    Now if you folks just want to start arguing guns, drugs, racism...take it to the darkside please.
     
    #47 frodoz737, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
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  8. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.
    If it is about pioneers being volunteers, I agree.
    However, there have always been bystanders that weren’t asked, or never knew what was happening.
    As for the general populace, there is always someone that doesn’t want something. If you want to be a part of society, you can’t always have your way.
     
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  9. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Volvo especially: Volvo's Driverless Cars Can't Figure Out Kangaroos | Gizmodo Australia

    To be fair, we human drivers can't figure out kangaroos either. They're very fast and very unpredictable. The road from here to Canberra is littered with casualties of this unpredictability: on the 300km drive from Sydney to Canberra, I reckon you'd typically see 50 dead kangaroos by the side of the road.

    Fortunately, in addition to being fast and unpredictable, they are also high in protein, low in fat, and delicious.

    I think this is absolutely the key. Would a real person have missed her? And overall, are these autonomous cars safer or less safe than the average real person?
     
    #49 hkmb, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2018
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  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if you take out the drunks, druggies, daredevils, dementoids and etc, humans might be safer. but it seems impossible.
     
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  11. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    I've done some work in the past with Neusoft, a Chinese company which does a lot of the electronic and computing systems for big global car brands. They're working with BMW, Honda and several other companies to develop self-driving systems.

    They won't roll out technology that is less safe than a human driver. But they said that even when they've got their technology to that stage, their big concern is an ethical one.

    I've mentioned it before, but consider this scenario.

    You're driving along, perfectly well. A huge out-of-control truck crosses the centre of the road and is heading straight at you. If you go straight or turn left, you'll hit the truck, and there's a strong chance you'll die. If you turn right, you'll avoid the truck and you'll survive. But on the sidewalk, there's a mother pushing a baby in a pram: you will hit them if you turn right.

    As a human, you'll probably notice the truck and not the mother and baby, and you'll swerve to avoid the truck and accidentally kill them. Or you'll see them, but your instinct for self-preservation is likely to make you swerve to avoid the truck and probably kill them anyway.

    But what does an autonomous driver do? Is its duty to minimise the number of casualties, or to protect its owner? If it's the former, will people pay for hacks to change their autonomous drivers' priorities?

    And will the autonomous systems reflect their brands' customers? Will the autonomous BMW be aggressive and not give a s--t about other road users' safety, just like human BMW drivers (@bwilson4web excepted - an i3 is different)? Will an autonomous Prius drive itself in a kind and considerate manner, just like human Prius drivers? Or will they all be the same?

    Years ago, in my first proper job in London, we had a client who ran the European operations of a large American company. He was Dutch and black. His company had factories near Amsterdam and near Paris.

    He spent a lot of time in Paris, and drove a new 7-Series. He kept being stopped in Paris for DWB. Eventually he went on TV and said that it made for an intolerable working environment for management and that - with the backing of his bosses in the US - he'd move manufacturing out of France if it happened again. It happened again, and he did. I can't say I blame him.

    The roads in Sydney would be empty.
     
    #51 hkmb, Mar 20, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2018
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  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "will they all be the same?

    Some conventional vehicles have 'economy', 'normal' and 'sport' modes. Insure of their names, really, but you get the idea. Optimise* several different software settings for auto-autos.
     
  13. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    Does that mean Toyota would have to optimise self-driving Prii differently whether they're in normal, eco, PWR, or EV modes?

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I was thinking of modes more like 'just get me there', 'thou shall not kill' or some other variant.
     
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  15. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    We often think of the value of a vehicle as some mixture of price, aesthetic preference, performance, reliability, crash safety, efficiency, cost to insure, etc.. Cost to insure is highly variable for a given vehicle commensurate with operator driving history.

    But when insurance agencies have hard numbers from autonomous vehicles that show vehicle "x" with autonomous system/software "y" is associated with only "z" bodily injury/property damage/collision/comprehensive/etc costs, manufacturers may hope to tout a vehicle's low cost of insurability, something that could potentially save a buyer many hundreds of dollars a year.

    Right now drivers with little experience and/or poor driving/accident records pay much more for insurance than the experienced and spotless record type. The former drivers stand to save a considerable amount of money here if autonomous vehicles prove their accident avoidance worth.
     
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  16. Montgomery

    Montgomery Senior Member

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    I figured my point would be lost. Simply put, as we rise to acheive more, be mindful how it will have an impact on society. My point isn't about "having it your way", its about loving others as you would want to be loved and respected. And you are correct about bystanders that weren't asked, or never knew what was happening.........which is my point...........we need to rise above that mentality. We are all better than that.
     
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It appears to be a Volvo XC90, plugin, because of the charging flap marked with a "C" below the driver-side "A" pillar. The reports are the car was at 40 mph which the NHTSA already claims has enough tire noise to not need a noise maker.

    My fear is this will encourage more noise makers on our plugin hybrids.

    More details: How a Self-Driving Uber Killed a Pedestrian in Arizona - The New York Times
    [​IMG]

    Some of the photos suggest the bicycle was carrying some packages or bags. Pure speculation but I wonder if the pedestrian might have been distracted by an overloaded bicycle.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    if the above description is correct, it looks like the driver, or any driver of a regular car would have easily seen the victim and at least have made an attempt to swerve and/or brake.

    however, the picture does not agree with an earlier description of the victim suddenly appearing from between parked cars on the side of the road.
     
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  19. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    Similar to Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics?

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  20. nednvermont

    nednvermont Member

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    From the photo of the vehicle it looks like a dark colored Volvo XC90. Seems a no-brainer to make autonomous cars in the brightest color available, perhaps even a unique color only for autonomous vehicles, which would alert others to that status. Certainly would have made the Volvo more visible to the walker/cyclist who was killed.