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Polar Ice for 2018

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Not entirely off topic. As this planet increases solar-E trapping in atmosphere (a small place), much bigger oceans have continued to E-transfer in ways we effinging don't understand.

    Air-T dipped ~1870-1910. Less ~1940-1960. ~2000-2010 was shortest and flattest. One might suspect that oceans have used up their century-scale T-moderating thing-doing. It would be great if we understood the ocean-thermal beast!

    Few-decades forward will feature atmospheric CO2 +2ppm (ish) per year; it has not been down regulated. I don't care who has told you what. Its solar-E trapping in atmosphere will increase less than linearly (because that's physics), and make +T at or not much higher than recent-decadal rates.

    You may have read that T will increase faster due (mostly) to water-vapor feedback. You may have read that other forces will send T down instead, with those other forces being loosely described.

    I personally reject both extremes; one from IPCC-sanctioned models and the other from climate-change deniers. My expectations must not be seen as certain, but somehow, among these possibilities, we need a comprehensive, good-for-humans plan.

    No more will I OT this polar-ice thread. Takin' it elsewhere.
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The best way to make God laugh, announce a plan. <rim-shot>

    We're a clever species capable of great and base thoughts ... often surprising ourselves. For me, ice and sea level are primary indicators that sum what is going on. They still hold my curiosity.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    As if on cue: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-02985-8

    Sea-level rise is a major consequence of climate change that will continue long after emissions of greenhouse gases have stopped. The 2015 Paris Agreement aims at reducing climate-related risks by reducing greenhouse gas emissions to net zero and limiting global-mean temperature increase. Here we quantify the effect of these constraints on global sea-level rise until 2300, including Antarctic ice-sheet instabilities. We estimate median sea-level rise between 0.7 and 1.2 m, if net-zero greenhouse gas emissions are sustained until 2300, varying with the pathway of emissions during this century. Temperature stabilization below 2 °C is insufficient to hold median sea-level rise until 2300 below 1.5 m. We find that each 5-year delay in near-term peaking of CO2 emissions increases median year 2300 sea-level rise estimates by ca. 0.2 m, and extreme sea-level rise estimates at the 95th percentile by up to 1 m. Our results underline the importance of near-term mitigation action for limiting long-term sea-level rise risks.

    [​IMG]

    The conclude with this happy thought:

    Due to the slow response to climate warming, sea level will continue to rise after temperatures have stabilized. Positive rates of sea-level rise will likely persist through 2300 even under net-zero GHG emissions and decreasing global-mean temperatures. Stabilizing global-mean temperature rise or achieving net-zero CO2 emissions can only be seen as a first step to halt global sea-level rise. Early peaking and stringent emissions reductions thereafter are vital and important to reduce the risk of low-probability high-end sea-level rise, yet insufficient to stop global sea-level rise by 2300. Delayed near-term mitigation action in the next decades will leave a substantial legacy for long-term sea-level rise.

    So even if we should achieve a stable, zero-growth, CO{2} rate, the heat already on the planet will continue to raise sea levels. The only mitigation are the huge numbers living near sea level who will be the first to feel the effects: Rising Sea Levels Are Already Making Miami&#x27;s Floods Worse | WIRED
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
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  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  5. Fester

    Fester Active Member

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    Upper altitude winds (i.e. jet streams) are driven by the temp difference between the pole and the equator. the Arctic is warming rapidly and we may see a Blue Ocean event this year. The lower the temp differential, the more the jet streams slow down and meander like an old river. Storm movement slows, and cold polar air can go far southward and warm southern air now goes to the pole to increase the melt rate. Also in the mix is the massive deposit of Methane Hydrates off the Siberian Shelf which can destabilize at any time. Global temps will then rise quickly depending on how much is released and would occur in days, weeks or months. A ice free Arctic will absorb massive amounts of solar input, and the feedbacks increase rapidly. Another degree or so of warming will also drastically reduce crop yields, which would lead to massive famine on a planet thats in incredible population overshoot. Its been quite the party for the last couple hundred years, but the Piper will get paid, probably much sooner than later and it won't be pretty.
     
  6. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    As an operational meteorologist (now retired), I understand upper level flow quite well.

    It is my experience that as upper flow weakens, the flow deamplifies; it doesn't amplify. For example, in mid to late summer, when the temperature gradient between the poles and tropics is at its annual minimum, upper flow is weak and tends to not have sharp ridges and troughs. That is mainly why organized severe weather tends to peak in spring (with a weaker peak in autumn), but tends to decrease considerably in summer months, in spite of having more thermal energy with which to work.

    I will continue to follow the weakening poles-to-tropics thermal gradient in the current warming scenario studies as it is my belief that something else is causing the upper level flow to become "wavier".
     
    #47 wxman, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Tiros-1 was launched in 1960 as Earth's first weather satellite. So there could be more than 50 years of images to examine for jet-stream patterns though time. Meteorologists present might talk about how much of that has been done or could be done.
     
  8. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Satellite water vapor channel is good for examining flow at the jet stream levels. Not sure how much that has been used in these upper tropospheric flow studies.
     
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  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Did any satellites look at water vapor before GOES began in 1975? We recall that they are they are geostationary and at least two are thus needed for full-earth coverage.
     
  10. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    As I recall, water vapor imagery has been available since I've been involved in meteorology (college in the early 1970s).

    According to University of Wisconsin, WV imagery was available on the first weather satellite operational in 1960 (water vapor absorption portion of the IR spectrum). Not sure how valuable those images would be for studying upper air flow at that time though.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  13. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Full longitude coverage from geostationary orbit requires at least 3 satellites, as any one is above the horizon for only 163 degrees of longitude. And the sharply oblique view near the limbs reduces the useful span.
     
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  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    "Although the two GRACE-FO spacecraft are very similar to those used in the previous GRACE mission, they will carry one new piece of equipment: the experimental Laser Ranging Interferometer. If this new technology works as planned, it could provide measurements up to 10 times more accurate than the microwave measurements, NASA officials said."
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I find 24 geostationary satellites currently in service. Launched by several countries, with different sensor suites. Uncertain to what extent they are mega-merged for weather forecasting etc.
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Looking at GOES full disk imagery to understand better the obliquity thing mentioned by fuzzy1. Was particularly struck by how uninformative imagery is at both poles. Same problem, and I suppose it means that only polar orbiters are useful for this.
     
  17. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Do note that latitude coverage span has about the same limit as longitude. Thus, as seen from geostationary orbit, 'the poles' on the images are really about just latitude 81 degrees N/S. The actual poles are hidden over the horizon, more than 900 km beyond the edge.

    I suppose geosynchronous (but not geostationary) sensors could be put on inclined orbits to image closer to the poles, but that would not provide continuous coverage of either.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    inclined geosynchronous orbits sound kinda 'Kesslery' to me
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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