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Paywall politics

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Scientific publishing is a rip-off. We fund the research – it should be free | George Monbiot | Opinion | The Guardian

    Like people in many countries where scholarship is poorly funded, Elbakyan discovered that she could not complete her neuroscience research without pirated articles. Outraged by the journals’ padlock on knowledge, she used her hacking skills to share papers more widely. Sci-Hub allows free access to 70m papers, otherwise locked behind paywalls.

    She was sued in 2015 by Elsevier, which won $15m in damages for copyright infringement, and in 2017 by the American Chemical Society, resulting in a $4.8m fine. These were civil cases, concerning civil matters. While the US courts have characterised her activities as copyright violation and data theft, to me her work involves the restoration to the public realm of property that belongs to us and for which we have paid. In the great majority of cases, the research reported has been funded by taxpayers. Most of the work involved in writing the papers, reviewing and editing them is carried out at public expense by people at universities. Yet this public asset has been captured, packaged and sold back to us for phenomenal fees. Those who pay most are publicly funded libraries. Taxpayers must shell out twice: first for the research, then to see the work they have sponsored. There might be legal justifications for this practice. There are no ethical justifications.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Was fortunate in the military/post-doc (residency), able to get what I needed. Don't know if it is still the case there.

    Not sure they shelled out whatever $$$ it took to get access, or if paywall keepers gave the military a free or discounted pass, but if not available library resources seemed to procure all requests.
     
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I would not fiercely defend scientific publishers, either for subscription journal models or for inflating prices on course-required textbooks.

    Don't know what alternative leads to maintenance of publishing quality.

    Just a few other comments. Mostly reheated leftovers.

    Open-access publishing transfers costs to authors. Range of USD$1000 to $5000 covers most journals; a few may be higher or lower. OA does not entirely remove 'taxpayer pays twice' aspect. Funding funds research and then pays publication costs.

    Authors will rarely decline direct email requests for free pdfs. It is not illegal (see fair use). Cited above mentions a cancer victim wanting to read about it. I am sure that email requests including such words would be fulfilled quickly.

    Public and university libraries are good places for grazing because they pay for journal subscriptions. In you go with USB memory stick and get busy. Often another aspect of taxpayer paying twice, with the exception that folks too lazy to go there have paid and are sofa-trapped from getting what they've already paid for.

    High subscription costs in rich countries sometimes subsidize lower costs in poor countries. You may not personally feel well-served by such policies, but 3rd world researchers appreciate it.

    Finally, of no particular interest to most readers, is that outside reviewers for journals work for free. As a member of that group I am guilty of coveting publishers' money bucket. But that's what we signed up for... To the extent that tax money pays such peoples' salary, and while reviewing one cannot do anything else, taxpayers pay for that as well.
     
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  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Some (journal article authors) link to pdfs of paywalled articles on their (institutional or personal) websites. But with authors actually getting successfully sued by publishers for copyright infringement, this practice seems unlikely to spread.

    Exceptions -

    Older articles seem unlikely to be lawsuit targets with thesis being that publishers have already squeezed most of potential revenue out of those products.

    Researchers in countries where US or Euro publishers are unlikely to prevail in courts. The wild, wild west. Yee-haw.

    ==

    BTW authors of book chapters often do not have pdfs to hand out. But also note that if your library pays a broad subscription fee to a publisher (Springer Verlag for example :) ) some of their books can be downloaded in their entirety.

    Your humble servant may have told poor-country visitors to a research institution in this country to graze extensively while here. Take the goodies back home and do whatever with them. While this might affect taxpayers in this country, PriusChatters won't care. Yee-haw.
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Sci-Hub is (or was) in Russia, with what appears to be a hacking model.

    Also in Russia is academia.ru In US is ResearchGate. These have a different model - authors post their papers to cite for free download. Don't know of anybody being sued at either site but I guess it could happen. More likely perhaps is publisher reminding author of copyright release they signed as condition for publishing.

    Signing is not optional . Some publishers are more squeezy than other perhaps.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    While the reviewers work for free, the people organizing them, working as the go between them and the authors, and maintaining their library do not. While the physical printing of papers is reduced, servers, electricity, and bandwidth aren't free.

    It's kind of like a birth certificate or other personal government document. They pertain to you, you pay taxes, but there are fees for a copy if you need one.
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Number of journals being published is growing rapidly. Probably the number of printed pages is growing much more slowly. How does computer hosting and serving a page (for years or longer) compare with the print run of that page? I have no idea.

    Publishing industry has costs, to state the obvious. I think that large publishers' profits are growing. Should be knowable in most cases.

    Several journals I am very familiar with do all their typesetting and layout in India. Not objecting to that; it is simply a cost-cutting measure. Might not be polite to name then :) but I don't think it's really secret.

    Another trend, not obvious (or important?) to casual observers is inline-only publication of supplementary information (or some similar name). Unlike printed main text, there is very generous size allowance - far more than 10 megabytes - in fact they are not typically stated so one could just pile stuff in and see if the editor objects.

    Other aspect of supplementary information is that they are not formally reviewed. So one might hold that material in lower esteem I guess.

    I'm just spouting off here on an industry I may know better than average reader. Not contributing to solution of initially stated problem.
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Not all US government publications are available at no cost. if I provided a list, it would be incomplete. This might be considered, while calling upon science publishers to abandon their current financial model.
     
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Scientific journals have paid editors. Financial details are not known to me, and I'd be surprised if cold emails to members of editorial boards got answered. Yet. those are probably not among largest costs for publishers.

    Publishers attend national and international scientific meetings with staff and large displays in the 'vendor area'. Pay registration fee and see them. Get free candies, pens or tote bags. Bring a plausible book outline and they will buy you dinner to discuss it.

    Just trying to add insight into the industry. Still not claiming to solve problem of how government-funded research (most of it is) should come freely to interested readers. Which it mostly already is, except for (your) sloth.
     
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  10. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Was that too accusative? Should I not have said that?

    Anyway, sloths have essentially perfected the art of slow. I'd say they deserve praise for that - but if you give it only slowly that probably would work for them. Human slowness is (perhaps) atypical and does not play to our many other strengths.
     
  11. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    MANY scientists have championed the idea that publicly funded research should be available to all and not locked away in pricey journals. Although this “open access” ethos has become more popular in recent years, most researchers’ work remains fenced off by an online paywall. That may change with a radical European initiative unveiled earlier this month.

    Eleven European countries, including Britain, France and the Netherlands, have signed up to what is called “Plan S”. This requires scientists who benefit from those countries’ national-research funding organisations to publish their work only in open-access journals on freely accessible websites by 2020. That would in turn prevent papers from appearing in around 85% of periodicals, including some of the most esteemed, such as Nature and Science.
    European countries demand that publicly funded research be free - Scientific publishing
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I might dispute that 85% as paywalled journals are increasingly offering option for open access. As stated above, this means authors or their institutions pay in $1000 to $5000 range.

    In a few years, Nature and Science and some small publishing houses may become islands in a sea of open access.

    Small quote from link@11:

    "International Association of Scientific, Technical, and Medical Publishers, which represents 145 publishers, believes this could reduce the level of peer review that journals could afford"

    Afford? I really don't understand that. It seems to suggest that peer reviewers somewhere are being paid, and unpaying them would downgrade review quality. Would be sad to learn that peer reviewers somewhere are being paid, because I and many others are not. We can't be, because, according to scripture, pay to reviewers causes us to lose objectivity.

    Please give that a moment of thought. A hundred (or thousand?) dollars paid would be enough to cause abandonment of principles like "speak only the truth" and "do not argue beyond your data".

    Gawd, somebody supposes that peer reviewers can be cheaply bought. I find that insulting.
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Look. In words with origins lost to time, "do your own damn research". Choose 5 "pricey" journals. Their open websites show what has been published lately and by whom. Choose an article from each and ask corresponding author of each, by email, for a free pdf. Don't say who you are or why you want it, just 'give me that'. I don't even care if you read them.

    Share your success rates here. Ignore my success rates, because maybe my email address smells academic.

    Let your results inform less-motivated readers' opinions on these touted paywalls.

    But, guess what? Sometimes corresponding author's emails are not disclosed. Those with skills enough to find cat videos can get past that tiny barrier.
     
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  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    This reminds me of the complaint that the Union of Concerned Scientists is a money raising organization. Well, duh, the work done isn't free to do, and while tax payer money may have paid for the research, that doesn't mean it paid for the dissemination of the results.

    Remember, there is no free lunch.
     
  15. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Indeed.
    This is a ridiculous argument, like a lot of others these days it seems.

    So, try this on for size:
    We (your average consumer) pays for EVERYTHING in the end, so maybe everything should be free.
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Two other perspectives on Sci-Hub:

    Who's downloading pirated papers? Everyone | Science | AAAS

    Guest Post: Think Sci-Hub is Just Downloading PDFs? Think Again - The Scholarly Kitchen

    ==
    It seems there are at least two matters on the table for discussion here.

    1. Are fee-based journals (they may be either for-profits or non-profits) the correct or only correct model for scientific publishing?

    2. Is Sci-Hub (or similar activities) an appropriate response to fee-based journals?

    My own tirades that average citizens can gain access to much scientific literature, piecewise, for their own use, are separate things. Or mostly separate. One can surely appreciate that Average citizens in poor countries may not have access to libraries with extensive journal subscriptions. They may have email addresses that look suspicious to authors' anti-spam, and so 'request' emails go to folders never opened. My touted cure lacks global reach.

    Even if it had global reach it would not moot the two matters above. They remain unresolved.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Every now and then, a blind pig:
    Four years after readers raise concerns, journal finally retracts climate paper – Retraction Watch

    In January, we reported on the case of a paper on global warming marred by several problems, including allegations of plagiarism and “false claims” by the authors — which readers had raised as early as 2014, with no result.

    I've had my work plagiarized and understand the hurt. In this case, it was a 'cut and paste' of their earlier work without attribution. Lazy as their original work was flawed on technical content:
    Retraction of Florides et al. (2013)

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Retraction does not always happen. Not inclined to reveal names, but I was pretty steamed in grad school that some person had published same words in two different journals.

    This was highlighted by choral simultaneous recitations of both texts. Ah the drama...
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07033-5?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20181018&utm_source=nature_etoc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20181018&sap-outbound-id=2D5B52E78B260E0C563846A16EEE9965818F4FD4

    This January, China was reported as overtaking the United States to become the largest producer of scientific papers. There is one major caveat, however, which consoles those who worry about China’s rise and worries those who cheer for it: a lot of those Chinese publications are of poor quality.

    Over the past few years, China has taken steps to show that it is serious about fixing this problem. Officials are censuring individual scientists to deter them from fraudulent activity and are upping the pressure on the universities that might try to protect them. In May, China set its sights on a more ambitious target — predatory journals, those that put no effort into vetting papers and exist only to collect money that scientists pay to get their research published. Officials announced punishments for scientists who publish work in journals that the government feels are not good enough. The Chinese government has not yet announced which journals it intends to blacklist. But institutions such as universities and hospitals are already establishing their own lists of journals to avoid — to the vexation of some researchers.

    China is not the first to make such an effort. Hunting down poor-quality and shady journals has become a mission for some librarians and governments. Most famously, Jeffrey Beall, a librarian at the University of Colorado Denver, started a list in 2008 of journals he said were dubious, which grew to more than 1,000 titles.
    . . .

    Having bought a few dubious SAE papers and seen the mixed bag at DECUS symposium, quality remains a challenge. Sad that we occasionally get burnt by incomplete or flawed papers. Retired, I'm better at asking for a copy of interesting papers.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Often the case that articles appearing in low-end journals have previously been rejected higher up the ladder. Authors have tendencies too aim too high, or not realize where research of a particular quality really fits in. It wastes many peoples' time.

    Another personal quibble that applies to several Asian countries is authorship inflation. Seems clear to me that one is not an author unless one did at least some of the work or writing. Around here, that rule can be applied very loosely.