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Gen 2 Engine Compression test out of the car

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by JohnStef, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    On my Prius rebuild I have removed the engine with the ticking sound. I'm pursuing replacement. I found metal in the oil when I changed it. And the motor does not make enough power to drive the hybrid system enough to charge the HV battery. So my question is about compression testing On The used motor that I have. The motor is out of the car on the garage floor. I have 5 PSI on number one cylinder and 60 PSI on cylinders 2 3 and 4. I am turning the crank by hand slowly with a ratchet wrench . My initial thought was that the engine was no good. But it could be the camshaft phaser is not working properly due to no oil pressure. One of the valves on number one cylinder could be left open throughout the entire rotation cycle therefore no compression. Do I have this right?
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There will always be some leakdown, so the result will always be lower by some amount the slower you crank. If you're not hitting 250 rpm or so with your ratchet, it probably makes no sense to try to compare with published figures. It does seem safe to say there's a significant difference between one cylinder and the rest.

    Have you considered an air compressor and a leakdown tester for these out-of-car tests?

    -Chap
     
  3. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    I do not have this this equipment Chap. I have a hose and a gage. The main question I have is will the Cam Phaser without normal operating oil pressure make it impossible to check compression because a valve will be left slightly open at top dead center on one of the cylinders?
     
  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    What about doing a leak-down test? The engine is static for that I think.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I think the answer to that is "no", because if it were "yes", it would also make leakdown tests impossible, and I've done those.

    -Chap
     
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  6. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    I woukd take the valve cover and the oil pan off and look around in there. See how well the oil was maintained. If it’s black in the main bearing area it’s not been taken care of and wouldnt waste my time.
    This little motor is all all about oil quantity and quality.

    Interesting supposition concerning if the atkisson cycle with the increased intake lobe duration working against you without higher rpm turn over. You may be right about that.
     
  7. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    Thanks Chap,
    And I was able to speak with a Prius Gen 2 Engine mechanic, he said the that the Phaser without oil pressure will not effect a compression by holding a valve open slightly. Without oil pressure the cam timing will stay centered. With oil pressure the cam timing will be advanced or delayed to optimize combustion.
    So my test results of #1 5 to 10 psi, #2, #3 and #4 65 psi indicated a bad engine condition. I took it back to the car salvage yard for a replacement. They were good about it. I pick this back up on Monday or Tuesday.,

    My method:
    Loosen the plugs 2 turns
    Place a 3/4 pvc pipe hooked to my shop vac over the plug to remove ANY loose dirt and mess.
    Remove the plugs
    Do it again with the vac
    Inspect the plug seat for dirt and mess.
    Use long forceps with soft rag wrapped around the tip to make a giant Q-tip and wipe the seat if needed
    Do it again with the vac.
    Screw the compression test hose in and make it tight, attach the gage
    Roll the engine over with a 19mm socket and ratchet wrench, look for the highest reading and roll it over again and see if it repeats.
    Go to the next one.

    I put a squirt or two of ATF in each cylinder, that raised the pressure on 2, 3 & 4 from 30 psi to 65 psi. #1 stayed the same, 5 to 10 psi.

    People tell me that MG1 spins at 1200 rpm to start the ICE and that is the real test of compression, I agree, but the hand crank method at 5 rpm with the ratchet eliminated a huge regret by not installing a bad engine.
     
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  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    When starting the engine normally, MG1 spins the engine around 1000 to 1200. If you are doing a compression test, there is a menu option in Techstream specifically to do that, and I believe it will crank the engine closer to 250 rpm, more like a conventional car, just so you get repeatable compression readings in the range people are used to seeing.

    Or a leakdown test, doesn't need to crank at all.

    @edthefox5, I've done leakdown tests with the engine not turning at all. The valves at TDC are closed; it holds air.

    -Chap
     
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  9. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    OK I just watched a YouTube video about the Leak Down Tester. This looks like my next tool purchase!(y)
     
  10. audiodave

    audiodave Active Member

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    At 5-10 psi it's safe to figure that cylinder is a problem. No more testing necessary. Lol

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  11. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Ehhh, yes but..... it does not tell you if you need the whole engine or just a cylinder head (burned/bent valve). However, adding the compression readings to the metal-in-oil findings support the "new engine time" idea.
     
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  12. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    ChapmanF could you please give a brief rundown of what you do with a used engine? Tests performed and items you check?
     
  13. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    I would pull the valve cover and check for signs of wear, finding none a leak-down test is the bare minimum before installing.
     
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  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I'm actually not a frequent buyer of used engines, but if I needed one I think JohnG's approach sounds reasonable.

    If I read the seller's warranty terms and they didn't want me pulling the valve cover, I think I'd still do a leakdown test.

    -Chap
     
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  15. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    JohnG I followed your direction above and pulled the valve cover, the wear on the cam lobes was minimal and the area was clean, almost no dark oil tar crud mess. The salvage yard did a pressure test on each cylinder before I left the yard, there was no hissing of any sort, from the exhaust, intake, oil filler cap, the dip stick.

    now the motor is installed and I have Power on!
    The salvage yard motor (112K miles, 2008) runs and works well. The test drive was successful, everything returned to normal. The hybrid system recharges while driving very well now.

    This project was a stretch for me, this is the 1st Prius engine swap, it was challenging. Thank you to the posters above
     
    #15 JohnStef, Nov 21, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
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  16. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    That is GREAT news and thanks for the update!
     
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  17. kutcht1

    kutcht1 Member

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    Hi John, I think I may need to do an engine swap as my 2008 with 290,000 miles has an upper ticking and does not have the same power and will not keep the HV battery charged. Do you have any advise or tips you found as you did yours? Take only engine out top, take engine and transmission out bottom, things disconnected and things to avoid, gaskets to replace and needed? Anything would help me gather what I would need.
    Thanks!
    TomK
     
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  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    The HV battery not staying charged might not be due to the engine, more likely the battery itself going off.
     
  19. kutcht1

    kutcht1 Member

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    I first thought that also Mendel. I have no codes or other dash lights, car still runs but poorly. HV battery charges right up when forced but drains gradually when driven. I have not connected my mini VCI yet as I have not used it after I bought it 3 years ago. Will need to get it out this weekend as I think I do need to eliminate it being the HV battery. Just have a gut feeling that it is fine and the ICE is my issue.
     
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  20. JohnStef

    JohnStef Member

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    Hello kutch1
    Your symptoms are just the way my car acted. I used the torque app and looked at each one of the cells in the high voltage battery, none of them were very different in voltage level, while fully charged or on the low end during a discharge. I kept thinking the battery was bad but I couldn't find anything to support that idea. If you have no codes I wouldn't be surprised that it is not the battery. Then I turned my attention to replacing The engine. Pulling out the top was not terrible. You just have to get your head wrapped around the idea that there are a ton of sensors and connectors, so be patient and document as you go through this. When it was time to pull the motor I became pretty frantic about getting that thing out of the engine bay because of a protrusion on the passenger side of the motor where it joins to the oil pan. There's a protrusion right there that kept interfering with the body sheet metal. I just could not get it out in a very gentleman-like way. So coming out, I' forced it and it finally came free. Look at that thing on your car you can take a Sawzall and cut that protrusion off so it's basically flush with the oil pan, it won't hurt a thing. When I got the replacement motor that's the first thing that I did and going back together was so much easier.
     
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