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Toyota has been dragging their feet on new vehicle technology...

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by Bill Norton, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    No some are talking political correctness and picking winners and losers for America.

    "Hydrogen is one of the most inefficient means to power an EV and currently 100% fossil fuel derived."

    I do not understand those comments. While the H2 safety is a valid discussion ( I feel can be managed) H2 has long been recognized as an efficient fuel of the future. Also the H2 fire in Norway was apparently using renewable source H2 disproving your second point. Meanwhile I contend making H2 from fossil fuel is relatively low CO2 yield, and the CO2 could conceivably be easily recovered.

    Note that I am not especially short-term bullish on FCEV cars for USA, but I can see a possible medium to loing term future interest. For other Counties (Japan/China/Etc) H2 FCEV may be more immediate interest.

    I personally feel my 13-yr old Prius is doing the greater good for the planet quite well..
     
    #41 wjtracy, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  2. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Mendel Leisk you are correct PLC stands for Programmable Ladder Controller - They are marketed under the name Toyoda. They are excellent PLC's and have a great name in the industry. I should have spelled that out rather than use PLC abbreviation. Thank you for translating that abbreviation for others.
    I should point out in the industry they are sometimes referred to as ToyoPuc.
     
  3. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    john, Why are we still importing? Do we process everyone's crude and sell refined products?
    Why does the southern Houston skyline look and smell the way it does?
    john, >Not trying to be your editor, buddy,,, but,,, if you maybe took sentences like these and made them 3 separate thoughts, readers may know wth you are trying to say.
    >>See above.
    >>>"How hard is toyota working?" ( is this a set up to a joke? Or typical fanboi stuff? Or is it foot dragging?
    Plus we're talking about BEV's here, and toyota not having any.
    >>>>Once again. wth are you going on about? Not trying to be your analyst, but,, is this paranoia?

    >Good that the Primes 25 mi range works for you !
    How much range would the M3 range increase with a heat pump? Consider that it would still need resistance heat for heat and defrost at the same time and consider the weight and cost differences.
    >>Yes, weight is important to all vehicles.
    >>>95% renewables ?!! That is awesome!! I may move there. Or at least have a summer home there in retirement.
    Yes, anti-EVers.... What can you say? (some are prii drivers....)

    >If we encourage as much solar installations, is that picking winners?
    The way I see it is we'd all be winners with a cleaner environment. 'Greater Good'.
    Electric producers can throttle back and not make as much profit and pollution, so they may be the losers. (too bad.)

    >>Did not know that Norway made 'renewable H²'. That is great if true.

    >>> 1st, Did you know that most natural gas (methane) comes out of the ground with a lot of CO² content in it?
    I have read that some area are 50/50. And that's before the energy usage needed to convert it to H² and then ship it and store it and transfer it to cars. It is a high density energy source, but the infrastructure is very limited and expensive. The EV infrastructure is over 100 years old !
    Can a FCEV be made lighter than an equivalent BEV? Can a FCEV airplane be made light enough?

    2nd, all the CO² producers like to talk about recovering/sequestering. Only it's all talk, correct?
     
  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    It does. But more range is always welcomed.

    I don’t know since I don’t have a TM3 and anything I say will be speculative. Yes you’ll have the added cost of both types of heating but you could make it optional (like Kia does with their Niro EV. Base “EX Premium” has standard resistive and top “SX Touring” gets the heat pump.

    Yup. We do have people from neighbouring provinces (and states?) retiring here. Choose from temperate coastal or dry interior. Love rain? North coast. Love mountains? SE. Wine? south central. Hate cold? SW coastal. Off the grid? Pick one of the small islands :)
     
  5. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    You're suggesting that somebody else is working harder?
     
  6. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Is this BC you are talking about?

    Oh no, no, no,, toyota is clearly vastly superior to all other car manufacturers. :whistle:
    Except if you want the car of the future, a BEV. (y)
    In that case they are 'Dragging their feet'. But I'm sure they have a perfectly valid reason.....:sleep:
     
  7. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    So is this just a poo-flinging session for you? You're not exactly presenting a positive image as a BEV proponent. Yours is not an example I'd follow or encourage anyone else to follow.

    I just wanted to know if you thought anyone else was doing a better job than Toyota. You might have just named a car company or three, but now I don't think you're actually interested in promoting electric cars- you just want to put people down and complain.
     
  8. smyles

    smyles Active Member

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    Dude is trolling and you guys are falling for it. Ignore, and he'll eventually disappear.
     
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  9. Rob43

    Rob43 Senior Member

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    This......


    Rob43


    PS, I still like my gasoline, I was using some today.
     
  10. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Well my guess is that no auto maker is going to make vehicles based on the conditions in only one, or a few, areas of the country.
    What is the national figure ? We pretty much have a national grid.
     
  11. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    With over a thousand posts, I doubt it.
    But your general point is well made.
    What a few people on a forum like this thinks makes NO difference in what Toyota does......or anybody else for that matter.
     
  12. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    Almost. Three large regional grids, independent of each other and with limited power exchanges. And seven wholesale power markets in the lower 48.
     
  13. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    Who among us can name the best car manufacturers and in what order? What are the metrics?

    I just linked an article that called out toyota in particular for not getting on the EV band wagon.
    Who cares? Not me.:whistle:
    Some people are happy with the status quo of buying gas and changing oil.:unsure:

    I'm really happy with my little EV S-box with its 82 mi. rated range.
    Battery degradation has been very minimal. I should pop the hood someday.;)
    I'm not in any rush to replace it.
    When people ask me "How much to replace the battery pack".
    I'd answer "When do I replace the pack? When it's a 50 mi range car? 40? 30?
    I may be waiting a very long time.
    Plus I have the top of the line '11 Prius for our road tripping!
     
  14. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

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    I CAN! All the cars I like get their manufacturers at the top. The cars I didn't like, they go at the bottom. The metrics are whatever I use to rank them in the desired order... :)

    Fiat E500, used from California for under 10K? I've seen a few of those in Omaha.

    Not everybody has the luxury of multiple vehicles. With a Prime, I have the combination of little to no gas around town (about 90% of in-town miles are on EV), and a car for road tripping. Plus, only have to insure one car, register one car, etc.
     
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  15. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Right, thanks for your constructive contribution. I'll let the ignore filter soak up the rest.
     
  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Yes I am well aware some nat gas supplies have CO2. As far as I know that is a big issue in the Pacific rim.
    But it is easy to get the CO2 out, and if you are making methanol, some CO2 can actually gets used to make methanol.
    The CO2 is an issue for producers, because then they have the cost of making saleable product out of it. So if you have a supply with 50% CO2, it is costly to produce and may not make sense. Presumably the CO2 could be sequested, so it is just a cost to those supplies that have the problem.

    I sat in on an interesting BiPartisan Policy Webcast about recovering CO2 from the air. Talk about strange bed fellows, those folks want a USA policy to remove CO2 from the air, but they want oil industry to take the CO2 to pump in into the ground for oil recovery.

    As far as renewable H2, keep in mind "electrolytic H2" has long been a commercial product delivered in trailer trucks (eg, like Ca.), favored by industry/labs due to its ultra-high purity. Although I do not know for sure, it sounds like the recent accidents in Ca. and Norway had to do with electrolytic H2 supply, but as I say, that has been a product for probably 80 years so the recent accidents seems to suggest a lack of appropriate safety measures. Of course, if you are making elecytrolyic H2, you have a choice of electricty from the grid, or solar/renewable generated. Expensive but certainly already well established commerical process.

    I can see if you deisgned H2 FCV's, you would like to start with electrolytic H2 due to the utmost purity. I can appreciate that.
     
    #56 wjtracy, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    The "dragging their feet" phrase in the title, has so much misguided inference. Toyota is in business, have no obligations other than to produce safe, functional and desirable products.

    They also have a mandate to meet some fuel economy standard, or wangle some compromise from the regulators, but how they sort that out is up to them.
     
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  18. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

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    >Yep! I can too! But you know that saying about opinions and a body part? 'Everybody has one, and they all stink'.
    There are magazines and consumer reports-like rating organizations. Whatever...
    Some of us have strong team loyalties.

    >>No. The one with American made Muscle parts (140 HP / 400 ft-lbs torque)! Faster / more fun than it needs to be !!
    (~$13k, used from Cali w/3.5k mi. Over 4 yrs later @ +67k mi. Mostly Free! I have to buy tires and windshield washer fluid.
    Turns out it's a Hybrid after all... It burns electrons and rubber !!!) :LOL:

    >>>Too True! That's what I always say about PHEV's! If you only have one car it should be a PHEV!
    Some have 100% EV capabilities and decent range. They all get you a taste of the EV experience.
    (I started with a Volt. It was my gateway EV. But, IF I had ~60 mi range, I could DRIVE for FREE and only charge at work! Bye, bye Volt...).
    They are all great 'dual-fuel' cars!
    >Sorry, I only repeated the first line from the article.
    How do you and john 'infer' what toyota's position is,,, with the BEV trash talking video ads and all?

    >> Too True ! And since toyota does not have BEV's,,,,, Lost Sale, toyota.

    >>>Too True ! CAFE. All car manufacturers follow this 'mandate'.
    Thoughts on CAFE from your POV? (I know one 'group' doesn't like the idea...)
     
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  19. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah true. Don't shoot the messenger, lol.
     
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    There's nothing being inferred. We look at the big picture. Those articles feed rhetoric by cherry-picking. Portraying the current Lexus position as the entire long-term plan for Toyota is just plain wrong. Yet, many choose to enable the antagonists spreading that spin.

    You cannot deny that the "self-charging" promotion is an attempt to overcome the confusion related to "hybrid" labeling. It is a clear attempt for Toyota to set the stage for "plug-in" promotion. They are readying the market by trying to establish a new term to more accurately inform their audience. Again, this is why the KNOW YOU AUDIENCE aspect of advertising is so vital. Toyota doesn't have any concern what a group of online enthusiasts think. That's not who they are targeting.

    That's a fundamental mistake GM made with Volt. The essential question of "Who is the market for Volt?" was dismissed as unimportant. GM continued on with their own trash talking of BEV, but not in a limited scope as Lexus has done. Volt was a Chevy, intended for appeal to the masses, not a Cadillac. Those who doesn't recognize the difference between luxury & mainstream consumers hope to take us as fools, spreading nonsense about position.

    It's really sad when that message is spread. But that's how spin works. Notice how vague the message actually is? That lack of detail is the message people pass along a message without any critical thought.

    We study what Toyota has done over the decades and recognize the pattern. We also recognize the mistakes others have made and continue to repeat. That's how we get the big picture.

    Think about how chaotic the market has become as a result of tax-credit phaseout. Those weak offerings heavily dependent upon subsidies are now showing their weakness. We saw that coming by looking beyond the cherry-picking. Others "inferred" that wouldn't be a problem. They were wrong, very wrong.