Another Inconvenient Truth: Meat is a Global Warming Issue

There is a lot to this and I usually dont go into the methane issues but the envorinmental destruction goes on in the US as well. The vast majority of our grains, corn etc go to feed the meat industry. With China and India growing more affluent so is their desire for meat and this is going to be a HUGE problem for EVERYONE! China is already building and planning to build large factory farms to meet this demand and the evironmental destruction that is following is scaring people

 

This is an argument that I've never fully understood. I accept that cows exhale CO2. I accept that cow fart Methane. The question is, where does all this carbon come from?

Now burning fossil fuels adds carbon to the environment. Of that there can be no dispute. The carbon from fossil fuels was locked up deep in the ground over millions of years, so when we burn it and release the carbon into the atmosphere, we are adding "new" carbon to the environment that wasn't there before.

So, what about cows? Does their carbon not come from plant materials? Do plants not get the carbon from the environment? Wouldn't the carbon that cows add to the atmosphere be carbon that plants they ate removed from the atmosphere? Wouldn't it be a zero net gain?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Aug 28 2006, 12:34 PM) [snapback]310679[/snapback]</div>

One easy way to think of it is to look at their example of rainforest trees. Most of the carbon and nutrients in the rainforest are locked up in the trees and will be for 10s or hundreds of years or in the case of temperate rainforests, thousands of years before the tree is recycled and its carbon is available for use by something else. By cutting down these trees you are releasing the carbon back into the system much sooner and is not taken back up fast enough in the cycle. Same goes for the important grasslands of the world which are huge carbon sinks. When you plow up the land for agriculture you destroy the root systems and eventually carbon sequestration in the soils. What does this have to do with cows? The main reason that these types of biomes are under threat is because of the meat industry. Cows need food and they need pasture land (when not factory farmed).

Esentially we need carbon sinks and long term sequestration. By burning fossile fuels, destroying forests and grasslands and possibly melting permafrost, we are releasing more carbon into the system than can be effectively handled without disrupting the climate we have grown accustomed too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Aug 28 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]310686[/snapback]</div>

Sure, OK, that I can buy. Clearing rain forests adds carbon and reduces the ability to absorb carbon. Fossil fuels are also used to the grow grain which is used to feed cows. OK, got that too.

But what's all this talk about the amount of CO2 and Methane that meat animals "emit", ie exhale and fart. Unless you are directly feeding cows fossil fuels, then any carbon they emit came from plants that removed that carbon from the environment within the past year.

I'm not saying that cows don't have an impact. I just don't understand why the focus is often put on what the cows themselves "emit".

 

Think of it like fossil fuels. The carbon locked up in the food they ate may not have been released into the atmosphere for quite some time. It could be locked up in soils and or water systems. So in this respect its not much different than an oil reserve that gets drilled and burned?

The other debate is on methane which is WAY more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

 

I don't agree about impact of meat either, in the US where the amount of farmland is relativly stable <we are not clearcutting large wooded areas for farmland*>, most of the CO2 involved is surface CO2 from grass and feed. Both products are regrown and therefore short term re-sequestered. There is no massive gain of atmospheric CO2.

* - We are clearcutting wooded areas for mcmansions, urban sprawl etc.

 

if you feel that way i would look to more sources for information. I have yet to see a source where it didnt list meat consumption as a global problem for CO2 and subsequently possible global climate change effects.

A lot of the carbon sequestion goes on in the roots of grasses and in typical agriculture those root systems do not stay intact. The ground is plowed up and the root systems are broken up and destroyed. This also allows wind to move sediments containing carbon out of the region or into other systems like rivers and lakes and subject it to possible chemical changes which could facilitate movement of that carbon to the atmosphere. Now add in soil salinization and reduced crop capacity of that piece of land and we are starting to see a problem.

The landscape is fairly stable from an agricultural standpoint because we have already converted the vast majority of it. When we think of all these forests around us take a look at what they consist of. Most are farm forests of trees like Douglas-Fir which will be harvested long before they can do a greater good for a healthy ecosystem and real long term sequestration.

Now, CO2 aside look at the water problems we face and will face in the future. Meat production uses a TON of water per unit of energy compared to per unit plant engery. Aquifers are drying up and ladscapes are subsiding. Cities can suffer from salt water creeping into the water table from drawing too much water for agricultural uses (obviously near large inland seas or coastal regions. Now throw in the urban sprawl problem you mentioned and you have more runoff with less water infiltration to recharge the aquifers.

These are just some of the most obvious examples of the problematic effects of high consumption of meat products. I have yet to do much research on the cows farting thing though so I'm not going to comment further on that subject LOL

 

I had a teriffic filet mignon for dinner tonight, left the Prius in the garage and took the "gas guzzler" to go get it too. Yum.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Sep 4 2006, 04:29 PM) [snapback]314215[/snapback]</div>

Ok, maybe I should retract my statement in the other thread. Selfish, greedy, antagonistic. How does that fit you?

If you want to post crap that is fine but at least back up your sarcasm with some factual knowledge instead of hiding behind cool sarcasm like some other members..

 

See thats what I'm talking about, so self important you can't even take a joke. Lighten up for Gods sake. Do you really think that I'm for conspicious and pointless squandering of natural resources or wanton pollution? Please.

Come on, this meat thing is absurd. Now we can't even enjoy meat because the animals it comes from fart and breathe too much? Theres a point at which all of this stuff becomes folley. Yes, we pollute the earth. There's no way around it, because of our evolution it will not be possible for us to exist as a contributing member of the eco system. Because of us, its GOING to change. All we can do is try to make smart decisions and find ways to make the things we must do and want to do to create the lifestyle we all want to live as eco friendly as possible. Unless we all want to go live in huts mother earth won't be better for our existance here.

You can find ways we hurt the environment everywhere if you look. Focusing on stupid BS like the amount cows fart and breathe takes time and effort away from areas we can and must make a difference.

As for factual knowledge, I'm not the one that asserts the strongest and longest running economy in the world is doomed to failure because of our dependence on oil.

You eco nazis might want to take a little time and realize that this holier than thou elitism you seem to think you're entitled to makes people like me, people you CAN win over want to defy you just for fun. I am delighted to see you fell for my bait.

 

Well then, you should realize that in writting it is often hard to tell when one is simple poking fun. ESPECIALLY on a UBB.

Try reading the rest of the thread and you'll find that I did not support nor deny the idea of bovine gasses effecting the environment. I stated the other problems associated with meat consumtpion that are documented.

When dealing with uneducated members of society who try to cover up their ignorance with snide remarks and "fashionable" labeling like "tree-hugger" or "hippy fag" it is easy for someone like myself to react rather quickly, and possibly incorrectly, to a simple jibe. I appologize for that.

Americans and humans in general never want to give things up, even if they are told its for the better. Its something we as a race will have to get over if we want to survive. Sadly enough, you are probably right. We will screw htings up so badly we wont survive and we will just be another chapter in earth's long history.

 

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I plan to order the DVD in the Navigation monitor next. Could someone tell me how to post a comment so i don't interupt fellow members by replying to their post just to get out the word? Thank you in advance.
http://www.coastaletech.com/

 

Not that line.

Again with the pompous nice person routine. WHY do you think people call you tree-huggers and hippy fags? Because you act like hippy fags. Your position is totally unnatractive to the middle americans you MUST win over because they'll have to agree with you. They don't want to do that because they hate you, and they hate you because you hate them. Guess what, you're not better than Cletus who has a 1980 Ford truck and kills deer for fun, you are simply different. Until you figure that out you're going nowhere. Thats why "liberalism" and "environmentalism" are dirty words.

Yeah you know because humans and specifically Americans have never made sacrifices or moved forward or found ways to survive before. We never moved beyond bloodletting or leeches in medicine, we never put people on the moon or found cures to hundreds of diseases. We've never overcome natural disasters and rebuilt homes and cities, we've never learned from our mistakes, we've never developed new technologies or made technologies we already have more efficient. I think we've made astounding progress so far, the ozone layer is getting thicker, cars and factories are more efficient than ever before, we've embraced new technologies and ways of generating energy. Do we have progress to make? Absolutely, but that shouldn't keep us from being proud of what we have done.

You see the glass as half empty whereas I see it as half full. With your outlook on people, you're never going to motivate anybody to do anything. THATS why you think you have to rely on taxation or coercion to affect change.

 

You're a work I tell ya

I deal with people day and day out in classes and schools where I have to work the psychology angle to get them to understand what Im talking about so that they dont get defensive and shut down. I often tire of it and when people like you come in and attack I really dont give a flying leap what you think anymore and as such I'm not going to "work" at trying to get you to conform. Americans have some pretty messed up values and norms compared to some othe rparts of the world so if I dont "fit in" with middle america then I am ok with that. We will not be a world power forever and our culture will be replaced. It has happened to all the other "great" cultures and so it will with us.

The thing is, you see me how you want to see me because I attack your ideals and your life and tell you its wrong. Its human nature to be offended and get defensive about it. Nobody likes to be told they are living wrong. *shrug* If you don't like the way I carry myself so be it. I'll lose no sleep over your opinion of me. In the end we will end up paying the costs of our negligence yet I'll rest peacefully knowing I made an effort to make my ecological footprint that much smaller and enriched the lives of those close to me by teaching them whats really important in this world.

Have a great night man!

 

Great, I win.

For the record, I have not one time become defensive, you sir are the one who has become defensive and shut down. "People like me", you don't know thing one about me.

Also, please don't try and talk to me about the "psychology" angle. I have a degree in psychology. Whats needed here is not psychology, its a respect for the other persons point of view, and a healthy discussion about how yours differs. Thats how statesmen debate issues.

LMAO, pal you can tell me the way I live is wrong all you want and it would never bother me, but to be fair you have no earthly idea how I live. You've made assumptions, thats all.

Again, nobody's become defensive here but you.

You mean a really f-in fast truck!

I'm sure thats real efficient. Leading by example I'm sure.

Surely the 17" rims and the sound system all add to the fuel efficiency of your Prius, and those trips to the drag strip must really keep everything in tip top running condition.

Total joke right there, great effort reducing that footprint!

 

Hey look, here's that truck saving the earth right now:



And you're going to tell me the way I live is wrong ROFLMAO.

"Oh stop hurting the earth by eating filet mignon Steve, do what I do and drive a rediculously overpowered gas guzzling truck over rocks and burn race fuel to go as fast as you can in a straight line for fun!"

 

So tiresome...

I've made all of my point 10 times over in this message bored and Im not in the mood to reiterate them all just for your enjoyment. If you're in a hurry doa simple search in the enviromental forum, FHP and the news forum for nanotechnology. If you are not in a hurry I would be happy to find them and link them for you in a PM.

you dont come across as stupid and I dont think I have actually called you such. Uneducated on the subjects I am talking about maybe or it could just be a different view point. I cannot be sure which it is. I did tell you were to find the information though soo.

As for the truck... Yeah, its pretty fuel inefficient. It gets an avgerage of 15mpg to a tank. Not too bad for over 500HP and a 16mpg when stock. I was into racing and othr hobbies and behavior that was not very sustainable yet I have learned enough to make some big changes (the part where I sold my C5 my T/A, my race truck etc etc). All my vehicles are paid off and I drive the truck to and from the race track or the shop when it needs repairs. I buy my meat and most of my produce form local shops form local growers in most cases and I dont buy as many gadgets or clothes. I also do volunteer work for restoration or survey projects so if Im not at least trying to do my small part then I dont know what is.

I like the Buck'o and Pal parts. Cute. So you like ready to fight or something? Or shoulder shoving? lmao

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Sep 5 2006, 01:38 AM) [snapback]314418[/snapback]</div>

Ah yes, the old "I've already made my point such and such many times I just don't want to bring it up here" routine. If you've already done this so many times, why still post on the subject? If you can't be bothered to have a discussion about the topics with the people whose threads you're responding in, why bother?

Now who'se doing the rationalization?

Why do you assume that I'm a physical person? I've never hit anybody for any reason, not one time.

In fact, none of this makes me angry at all. In fact I find you extremely amusing.

Then go to bed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Sep 4 2006, 10:17 PM) [snapback]314412[/snapback]</div>

Again, read my post. You keep editing yours and screwing up my replies

Did you notice what I drive on a daily basis? Yeah I'd say I am leading by example. That you can have your fun toys and use them now and again if you can mitigate their effects by reducing in other areas of your life. I've done that. Again, no one is perfect but I have the right ideas and am turning my life around. No shame in admitting that.

Pal, and Buck'o.. Still amused by that. LMAO



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Sep 4 2006, 10:47 PM) [snapback]314420[/snapback]</div>

Glad I could amuse you. I have no more interest in debating with you. If you want the information go look for it. Attack my perfectly searchable information all you want. I've nothing to hide and am happy with the direction my life is now going.