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Featured Long-Range EVs Are The Antithesis Of Efficiency And Sustainability

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Prius Pete, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    after the mountains of brown coal ash start to pile up, maybe get rained on, & spread like a toxic River, like has happened here in the US, the public down undah - may have 2nd thoughts, & start fighting back against the politicians that were bought off to allow for such shenanigans.
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  2. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    Global Toyota/Lexus HEV sales in 2013: 1279225
    Global Toyota/Lexus HEV sales in 2018: 1633189 (increase of 27% since 2013, increase of 7.4% over 2017)

    Toyota is a company that operates worldwide. It makes decisions based on the worldwide market. That market indicates that its hybrids sell well.
     
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  3. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    Diesel exhaust has been labeled a carcinogen by WHO. Excessive NOx emissions may not have killed with cancer but they still killed thousands, especially in European cities which have been turned into unhealthy places to live by the exhaust from millions of diesel cars.

    You are right that many Gasoline direct-injection cars emit excessive fine particles (including the Ioniq). Prius does not use GDI. Toyota's new dual injection engines are designed to avoid excessive particle emissions (as any proper engine design should) and also to avoid carbon buildup in the intake manifold (the port injector washes it with gas). While they do need two injectors per cylinder, they do not have turbos, GPFs or DEF emissions systems and are designed for long-term reliability, efficiency and low emissions. Combined with Toyota's simple, reliable eCVT transaxles the new engines provide a simpler, more reliable drivetrain than the complex turbos and 9-speed transmissions used by competitors.

    As for renewable diesel fuel, I liken that to "flex-fuel" -- a bogus green feature that hardly anyone uses. Companies with a lot of diesel heavy equipment can and should use RD. Motorists will just fill up at the local station, and that will be selling fossil diesel.
     
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    toyota made a bev decision recently, based on the china market alone. and they make a lot of decisions based on the japanese market alone. the rest of us get the crumbs, and we're grateful for them!:p
     
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  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Wow! Interesting chart. That's a lot of hybridized Lexus considering the market & their costs - even over the past years. Source of the data?
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Some of us were grateful but we’re in a different place today. Not opposed as much as we’ve found better solutions for our requirements.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed, we all drive what works best for us. at around 90% ev, pip is the perfect car for me, and i'm grateful toyota decided to build it. it was touch and go for awhile, as they really were never enthusiastic about putting a plug on anything. hmm, sounds familiar...

    the only downside is that it doesn't burn enough petrol
     
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  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    try my better ½'s favorite technique. Put your foot into it, from light to light.
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  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    She drives the Tesla?

    Bob Wilson
     
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  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I've had enough of her tire wearing tactic in the Tesla. Traded it in for the mild-mannered plug-in minivan. In the Pacifica plug-in, I'll average in the low 60mpg's, she'll drop it down to low 50mpg's. I'll post pictures of the 5,000 mile range tallied up so far when I get a chance.
    .
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The WHO's findings was based on a study of workers in an enclosed mine using off road diesel equipment. I don't dispute them, but they don't apply to cars with modern exhaust systems for the same reasons health studies of lawn mower emissions don't apply to modern gasoline cars. Particulates are the carcinogen, and their emitted level from DPF equipped diesels is lower than gasoline cars, including port injected ones.

    NOx is bad, and it is bad in Europe because of lax standards. The US took a far stricter stance on diesel passenger cars. When ULSD became the norm, diesel cars here had to meet the same limits as gasoline cars. That was like imposing emission standards from the late '90s on cars in the '70s. It was a hard requirement. But scrutinized GM and BMW diesels has shown that diesel cars can be as clean as gas ones, even the cleanest.

    All diesel in Pennsylvania has been B2 since 2009, because of a mandate based on the amount of biodiesel manufactured in state. There is a chain of fleet stations selling next generation biodiesel, that is a direct replacement for diesel, in California.

    But I wasn't thinking of biodiesel. The process using water, CO2, and renewable electricity for renewable methane can be extended to get a light weight, sulfur free synthetic crude. It can be used as is in power plants and ships. With simple refining, it yields diesel. In theory, gasoline could be made, but I'm guessing the energy requirements for that mean a large deficit. Audi has a pilot plant for the methane, and one for the syncrude. Their renewable gasoline efforts are with biotech firms developing organisms to make the fuel.
     
  12. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    It's sales of electrified Toyota and Lexus vehicles, not just Lexus. The source is the Global Toyota web site Sales, Production, and Export Results | Sales, Production, and Export Results | Profile | Company | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website You can download a spreadsheet on the right of the page ("Sales of HV and FCV") with all kinds of Toyota sales data. Within the spreadsheet, you can unhide columns to get even more detail. This is just an excerpt. The interesting thing is the growth of hybrid sales in Europe in the last few years.
     
  13. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    It is bad in Europe because diesel-makers designed for the test instead of ensuring they met European emissions limits in normal driving in order to protect public health. Diesel-makers lobbied for testing they could game. Diesel-makers lied to European lawmakers, telling them diesel could reduce CO2 without causing air pollution. Sure, 4 years after dieselgate, you can now buy diesels that properly obey the emissions limits. For the last few years they were still knowingly selling non-compliant diesel cars (that had previously been certified against the bogus testing). For 10-15 years before dieselgate diesels spewed poisonous NOx and particles with inadequate emissions control. Many of those pollution machines are still on the road. Diesel makers may have finally brought out legal engines but it will take a long time to undo the harm they caused and those they killed and are still killing will not be brought back to life.

    Diesel-makers have campaigned against hybrids in Europe by spreading misinformation. "Hybrids only save in city driving". "Hybrids have to lug around a heavy battery and therefore produce more particles from their tires and brakes" "Batteries are bad for the environment" They brought out expensive plug-in hybrids then argued diesels were better. They led people to believe that hybrids had to be plugged in.

    The fact is that a Prius does not weigh more than a comparable automatic diesel. Average fuel consumption is lower than a comparable diesel in real world driving according to reported results on spritmonitor.de.

    Prius 2016 and later: 4.46 l/100km Consumption: Toyota - Prius - Spritmonitor.de

    Golf diesel 2016 and later: 5.91 l/100km -- 32% higher consumption Diesel consumption: Volkswagen - Golf - Spritmonitor.de

    It is too late for diesel in Europe, where most of its sales were. Cities are restricting diesels. Diesel drivers feel ashamed of their cars and are angry that governments and manufacturers tricked them into buying cars they thought were good for the environment, but were not. They worry they won't be able to sell their diesels for a good price.

    In the late nineties, Toyota recognized that cars in the 21st century had to have low emissions and low fuel consumption. They designed a revolutionary drive train to meet those goals. Diesel-makers decided to lie and cheat instead. They have no ethical credibility in my books. Anyone who promotes diesel on PriusChat can expect to be challenged by me.
     
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  14. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Actually, we have been discussing the EV model of C-HR for over a year now. The perspective of "recent" is the antagonist narrative being passed along.

    As for that "the rest of us part", it is why the "Who?" question was asked so many times over the years. In fact, that's how "know your audience" came about. There was a genuine concern the EREV nonsense would mess up the market here. And sure enough, that "vastly superior" push soured reception here.

    I am not the slightest bit grateful for that unfortunate outcome, since it was preventable.... and I was one of those in the "we" that fought hard to try to prevent this.
     
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    the "who" that is soured, is who? Every EREV slash PHEV that start talking about their cars, are loving what they got - & each is a fan because it meets their needs.
    The 'sour' comes in, when manufacturers of the vehicles they love (whether ICE, EV, HEV, PHEV) get cancelled - regardless of whether it's doing well or not. The graph below proves that 'outselling' - doesn't guarantee it won't face The Chopping Block;

    Capture+_2019-06-24-07-26-54-1.png
    Visualizing Electric Vehicle Sales Around the World
    The #2 selling vehicle, although out of production in the US, has still sold more than all the other vehicles below it - ie, others still haven't caught up. So its popularity speaks for itself. The only conclusion is, the manufacturer is battery constrained, just like Toyota, Ford, etc. There's somewhat of an irony when plug-in advocates become as hostile to another manufacturer's plug-in, almost as much as big land barge coal rollers.
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    #76 hill, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There are also loop holes that allowed emission systems to shut down in order to "protect" the engine. These all fall under lax standards.

    If exceeding emission limits on the road is your metric, then all cars cheat. Even gasoline ones exceed Europe's NOx limits when driven normally.

    VW should have been punished harsher, but their crime wasn't just the extra pollution. Their actions also prevented truly clean diesels from having a chance in the market. Honda was planning a diesel Accord for the US after they cancelled the first hybrid one. Their diesels are respected, and they give a damn about emissions. But they couldn't the car to pass emission testing like the Jetta was at the time. Then the same thing played out when Mazda tried introducing a diesel.
    Same arguments are being used against BEVs now. Yet the Mirai is heavier than a Model 3.

    Diesels may regain some share among trucks and SUVs. Some people actually use these vehicles for work, and so far, no successful hybrid has been up to the task. The F150 has a diesel now, and will be getting a hybrid option next year. It shall be interesting to see how the market responds. Though the manufacturers know there is demand for diesels, and only offer them in higher trims as a result.

    In the seventies, Japan's MITI started running a LEV(low emission vehicle) program with the auto industry. It included research into EVs and hybrids. In Japan, the Prius has had a subsidy lowering its effect price since its introduction, because of this, or an offshoot, program. The conclusion drawn on BEVs was that they would only work as short range city cars. For the time, that may have been true, as the cutting edge technology was NiMH; most of the BEVs sold were using lead-acid. This group think seems to still be in place at many Japanese car companies, including Toyota.
    In the Volt's case, there was more at play than just battery supply. The other car models made at the same factory had dropped in sales. Unlike Toyota with the Avalon and ES, GM and Ford couldn't afford to keep making low volume sedans for the sake of pride.

    So the Volt wasn't cancelled. Its factory was shut down because the other model lines made there were cancelled. Now being a sedanish car, moving Volt production couldn't be justified. The drive train is in a couple of Chinese Buicks, so Voltec didn't fail.
     
    #77 Trollbait, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm having a 'slow day' ... what is "EVRE"?

    If this is a backhanded comment about my trade-in of the Prius Prime for the Model 3, the decision was a question of meeting requirements.

    We got the 2017 Prius Prime because TSS-P was so superior to the absence in our 2010 Prius. But this past year, I was not racking up miles in the Prime because the dynamic cruise control in the BMW i3-REx was 'good enough' and the other TSS-P features like lane keep alert were weak. The short wheel base and high power to weight of BMW i3-REx let it scoot around town with better steering and size for traffic. Then the $35k Model 3 arrived.

    With AutoPilot, I can confidently drive long distances. The car auto steers in its lane with a few easily identified exceptions. The dynamic cruise control is nearly identical to Prius Prime including the problem of trying to brake for turning cars.

    Backing up AutoPilot is a weaker, lane keep assist that unlike TSS-P, does not over steer back across the lane and penetrate the next one like TSS-P. The car will slow oscillate between the lane markers and not violate them (in my limited testing.) But AutoPilot is really the way to auto steer staying in the lane.

    One big unknown was SuperCharger costs and driving long distances. Three round trips of +600 miles each way and a 500 mile round trip has resolved: (1) SuperChargers are affordable, ~75-95 MPG costs, and (2) speed and costs can be minimized. Our Model 3 has become a reliable, cross country car . . . for us.

    So was my brief dissertation "EVRE?"

    Bob Wilson
     
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  18. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    EREV extended range electric vehicle
    Volt fit under that description, same with your BMW.

    And yes, Superchargers are extremely reasonable. My last Supercharging session cost me 14 cents per kWh.
     
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    It was bad spelling (or is that bad abbreviating) . Should be EREV - extended range ev / a fictionalized word to suggest it's a different thing from a PHEV. 6 of one ½ dozen of the other. Fixed it so it wouldn't confuse. Thx
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