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Featured Long-Range EVs Are The Antithesis Of Efficiency And Sustainability

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Prius Pete, Jun 20, 2019.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    EREV is a subset of PHEV. Just like mild and full are subsets of hybrid.
     
  2. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    Yes. Diesel-makers lobbied for those loop holes then used them extensively to avoid being failed on emissions tests. For example, they said that emissions systems had to be turned down at lower ambient temperatures (e.g. 10C) to protect the engine. I guess they figured pedestrians hold their breath all winter! Diesel-makers may have obeyed the letter of the laws (that they helped write) but they unethically knowingly attacked public health in European cities for their profit.
    I compiled a list of emissions results for 139 cars from ADAC's ecotests. I have found only two gas cars that exceeded the Euro6 NOx limit of 60 mg/km for gas cars: the Audi TT RS Coupe quattro S tronic emitted 68 mg/km of NOx in ADAC's realistic tests. That is still under the limit of 80 mg/km allowed by Euro6 for diesel. The Ford Fiesta 1.0 EcoBoost Start/Stop Titanium emitted 63 mg/km of NOx. Quite a few gas cars exceeded the particle count and CO limits but high NOx emissions are specific to diesels, many of which emitted over 300 mg/km.

    In 2015 there were very few, if any "truly clean diesels" available on the car market although making one has always been possible. Now in 2019 there are diesels that properly pass the emissions tests, though I would hesitate to call them "truly clean" since their NOx emissions are still sometimes 10 times those of a Prius. It was not "truly clean diesels" that got hurt by the diesel emissions fraud, it was Toyota hybrid sales in Europe that were hurt (along with city-dwellers with weak lungs, investors in diesel-makers, diesel customers). From 2014 to 2018, once diesel was known to be dirty, Toyota/Lexus hybrid sales tripled in Europe. European countries have taken climate change seriously and have long offered tax breaks for low CO2 cars. People should have been buying hybrids but they bought diesels instead. Toyota should sue but I doubt they will.

    So Honda and Mazda couldn't meet the emissions rules with their diesels. That's the fault of diesel technology. It's not VW's fault they couldn't pass. On my list I have 3 Mazda diesels with excessive NOx: Mazda2 SkyactivD 105 (243 mg/km), Mazda3 SkyactivD 105 (329 mg/km) and the CX-5 SkyactivD 150 (342 mg/km). Mazda was a cheating diesel-maker. Toyota also sold diesels that exceeded emissions limits. European customers demanded diesel engines thanks to lies from VW and other diesel-makers. That is a black mark on Toyota's reputation but they sold few and dropped diesel quite quickly in favour of hybrids.

    Not only has diesel been toxic to lungs, it has also been toxic recently to company profits. Today there is news that Daimler profits continue to be hit by diesel related costs. They now have to recall another 60K diesel cars accused of cheating in Germany. Legal proceedings on the emissions frauds and corporate disclosures continue and, hopefully, more executives will end up in jail.

    Diesel will endure in larger trucks and other low-volume applications but in no way is it a power-train for mass-market cars in the 2020s and beyond.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    No. They saw the Jetta 'passing' with just a NOx trap while maintaining performance and efficiency, and so spent a lot of time and money trying to figure out how for their own cars. Without VW's actions, they would have quickly realized SCR was the only reliable way of meeting EPA emission targets, which is what Mazda did for the CX-5.

    If VW is at fault for lost hybrid sales because of their cheating, then their cheating also harmed companies with honest diesels.
     
  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That's called moving the goal posts. We all know the target numbers, dates, and locations... none of which that damage-control effort will forgive. This is yet another example of: OVER PROMISE, UNDER DELIVER
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The PiP had the same 60k(30k Japan:30k US) target number as the Volt when it was released.
     
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  6. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    Even diesels with SCR cheated. There were no "honest diesels" in 2015. Mazda cheated. Honda failed to come out with a diesel that complied with emissions limits. Even the Civic diesel ADAC tested in May 2018 emitted 2.5x the NOx limit although it supposedly passed Euro6d temp WLTP. In the industry there was suspicion that VW was cheating somehow. Why didn't Honda tear down a TDI and expose the cheat? Honda knew hybrids were a better solution but they couldn't sell them in Europe either.

    As for Toyota hybrids being hurt, between 2009 and 2015 European diesel sales totaled 49M. That's 49 million car buyers willing to lay down a little more money for a car that is efficient and good for the environment. Sounds like an ideal market for Toyota's efficient, low-emissions hybrids. Say they captured 20% of that market, that's 9.8M cars. Say $20000 avg wholesale price and we see that fraudulent diesel-makers cost Toyota about $200B in sales. Toyota's worldwide hybrid sales in 2009-2015 were only 6.8M. Europe could have more than doubled total Toyota hybrid sales. Diesel-makers made a trillion dollars in sales selling diesels in that period. The fines they have had to pay look like a reasonable cost of business when the rewards were so big.

    Toyota hybrids pass Euro6 limits without cheating. Their CO2 numbers are among the best for non-plug-ins. Toyota hybrids were perfect for Europe but they had their opportunity stolen by wide-spread corporate fraud on the part of diesel-makers. And people died.

    The lesson here is what can happen when corporations are allowed too much influence over the regulations that govern them. The lesson here is that major corporate crimes cannot be deterred by fines. The responsible executives need to serve jail time.
     
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    A little over 51,000 sold the first year, despite an extremely limited rollout here (just 15 states), makes your desperate attempt to change focus pointless. We all know the full story quite well. Pretending this is new information screams unfulfilled objectives.

    Reality is, the measure for success of failure was always based upon the ability for each automaker to deliver a system that could achieve sustainable & profitable sales prior to tax-credit phaseout. The reason for that is undebatable. It was the very purpose of such a generous subsidy. In fact, that is why each automaker was given the discretion of choosing their own timeline, to best utilize that limited opportunity.

    GM squandered what they had, wasting it on conquest rather than finding a means of spreading the technology to other vehicles. That's why the lame excuse for Volt being discounted holds no merit. That system should have been implemented within a Trax or Equinox many years ago. Remember how all that EREV vastly superior nonsense? Volt sales plateaued at the 1,600 to 1,700 level. Each month, regardless of what GM attempted, growth was never achieved. That's so far below the business goal to keep the technology viable, there's nothing else to but try something quite different.

    Toyota's approach is quite different, hence the absence of any constructive attempt to discuss the situation. Toyota still has time. They have an ample number of tax-credits available and they are already well into the diversification effort. Corolla PHV will be rolled out later this year, starting elsewhere. That gives them even more time to prepare the stage here for that necessary growth. In the meantime, RAV4 hybrid is pushing well into the mainstream, reaching a new audience GM could only dream of. It's a platform capable of offering a plug later too.

    So all the spin about not failing won't cover up the reality of status quo remaining unchanged for GM. Their dealers are doing the same old push of giant guzzlers with no plan for the future. It's just a day-to-day survival situation... which is why there's reason not to consistently remind everyone of that past. You don't overcome mistakes in history by not acknowledging they ever happened.

    This is why recognition of Toyota's effort genuinely change their fleet should be taken seriously. This antithesis thread revealed what about efforts to achieve efficiency & sustainability?
     
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  8. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    The most recent ADAC test results showed that all 13 Euro 6d-temp diesels that were tested produced NOx emissions below the regulated limit in RDE ( Neue Diesel-Pkw sauberer als vorgeschrieben ).

    The Honda did produce the most NOx emissions in its testing (102 mg/km), but all the other were well below the 80 mg/km WLTP limit. The BMW 520d and Opel Astra produced 1 mg/km, and the Mercedes C220d produced no measurable NOx during the RDE testing.

    Appears the NOx-emissions-from-diesels issue has been resolved.
     
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  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    IIRC Chevy offered up the cruise with a no cheat diesel option, as far back as 2014. 3yrs ago our next door neighbor came home / pulled up with a brand new one - in 2016. He had it on lease until this year. All that to say, there are sometimes exceptions to the rule.
    Find more Diesel Chevy Cruze for sale at up to 90% off
    Good mileage, but - offset by higher maintenance cost & fuel oil more expensive than gas, usually, to run it.
    That said, I do love a good historic article - pre- cheat discovery / scandal.
    From over a ½ decade ago;
    German automotive companies launch “clean-diesel” marketing campaign in US - Green Car Congress
    .
     
    #89 hill, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Why didn't you tear down a TDI to expose the cheat? The ICCT has been studying vehicle emissions for decades in Europe. Their research has shown how much diesel, and petrol, have been exceeding regulated limits. They didn't get evidence of cheating until they funded research on for US cars with West Virginia Tech in order to get data on how clean diesels could be in order to have it for lobbying for stricter regulations in Europe. The results of that study is what started the EPA investigation of VW. The tested BMW didn't raise any flags.

    I'm sure other companies uspected the cheating, but they didn't see exposing it as their concern, or were in on it. Toyota only stopped selling diesels in Europe recently; they lost hybrid sales to some of their own diesels. Part of the reason they stopped was because their diesels weren't selling well. They haven't stopped diesel sales in other markets, including Japan, whose emission standards are what Mazda's SkyActiv-D was designed for.

    Being efficient and good for the environment aren't the only thing important for buyers. Performance is another, and many hybrids were lacking in that department in comparison to diesels. Power hybrids have never done well; that's why the first Accord hybrid was being cancelled. Then some buyers prioritize operation costs, and diesel is simply cheaper in much of Europe. Diesel cars are doing poorly in the US, because the fuel costs more than premium gas in most of the country.

    Completely agree. I feel if a society is going to have capital punishment, it should apply to white collar crimes with huge impacts to societies.

    Greed is not the sole factor to consider. There are technical ones.

    Gasoline engines are not clean. Before we started regulating emissions of cars, gas ones were horrible, and worse than diesels in many areas. Anyone that has used a gas lawnmower has an idea of the pollution levels a gas engine can produce, and today's lawnmowers have tighter regulations than pre-emission cars. The classic cars I encounter on the road have a hydrocarbon cloud in their wake.

    Gas cars are only as clean as they are today after decades of steady tightening of emission limits and improvements in technology. Because of sulfur levels in US diesel, diesel cars have been limited to technologies only possible at the beginning of the emission control era. Then they had a few years to make the advances gas cars got over those decades. They had a head start because of what was known fro gas cars, but not a guarantee for success.

    Then there is the fact that the official tests don't model the drive cycles people actually put cars through. Political inertia makes changing the tests difficult. In the US. Changing the emission test cycles will also need changes to CAFE in addition to the emission limits, for example. Changing the test while keeping current limits, or tightening the limits while keeping the current test, could encourage cheating if they are technically difficult to achieve.
    By whose numbers?
    Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid - Wikipedia has 27,279 gobal PiP sales, and that comes from Toyota's own press release.
    実績データ(ハイブリッド車グローバル販売) | トヨタ自動車株式会社 公式企業サイト
    Better than the Volt, but GM is not the company people have in mind when criticizing Toyota over plug ins.
    The EPA has an anti diesel car bias, so will scrutinize them harder than Europe does. Just applying the same standards to them as gas in evidence of this bias. While the EPA is stricter than Europe overall in emission limits, gasoline cars wouldn't pass for CO if they had to follow Europe's diesel standard for it.

    Locally, the per mile cost between a diesel and gas model is about the same. With a MSRP thousands more, diesels don't sell. Did see a Cruze diesel hatchback recently on the road. A plus for GM, and maybe Ford, is that their diesels can handle up to B20. It's B5 for the others.
     
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  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    But the ‘customer expectation’ remains along with the unreconstructed models that still have the diesel stink.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  12. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    Whoop-de-doo! After selling probably 100M polluting diesels in Europe over the last 2 decades, they finally started to make diesels that don't kill people with air pollution. The Euro6 limits came out in 2014. It is just the testing that has evolved recently. Diesel-makers got themselves "compliance factors" to allow over-limit emissions until recently. Never have a bunch of corporations worked so hard to give themselves licence to hurt so many people.

    I have never seen test results on the diesel Cruze but I'll accept that it properly passes. Dashboard-light does not break out the diesel but it says Cruze has "chronic reliability issues" with respect to its power-train. Under GM ownership, Opel in Europe sold many non-compliant diesels. Yes you can now buy a diesel with legal emissions. And if you need to tow a big trailer long distances and have a good source of renewable fuel of some kind then maybe you should consider buying one of the compliant diesel vehicles. For the rest of us, commuting and buying groceries, a good hybrid is a much better choice.

    I'm not here to defend gasoline cars. I'm here to defend Toyota hybrids. I don't know how GDI cars from Hyundai and others are allowed to be sold when they exceed CO and particle count limits. But, in Europe, it is diesels that have done the damage. Even with DPFs, particulates form in the atmosphere from NOx emissions. NOx and PM2.5 seem to be the main problem in European cities. In North America, diesel cars were never plentiful enough to make much of a difference to air quality. We should consider ourselves lucky.

    Daimler is having to do a further diesel recall for emissions violations in Europe and continues to have its profits impacted by the diesel fraud. Many millions of high emissions diesels continue to spew poison in European cities. People with weak respiratory systems are still dying there. Manufacturers are still working on getting their vehicles past the new emissions testing regime. Court cases continue and new ones are still starting up. Responsible executives remain unpunished. The "NOx emissions from diesels issue" will drag on for quite some time, I expect.

    In the UK today, an automatic Golf TDI will cost you £26155. A Prius costs £24,245. The Golf officially emits 116 g/km of CO. The Prius 75-85 g/km. The Golf consumes over 30% more fuel on average according to user reports. The Prius has "exceptional" long-term reliability, the Golf is maybe average. The Golf is from a company that committed an enormous environmental crime with its previous models. The Prius has had low emissions since its introduction. It did not have to be continually redesigned to meet improving emissions standards. In my view, diesel has lost the technological race for low-emissions, low-consumption affordable high volume cars.

    This is PriusChat not tdiclub. I thought I'd be preaching to the converted!
     
  13. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    That's true whether new diesels are completely banned or not. You can't unring that bell unless they have some buy-back program, and that would likely cause more emissions than just letting the high-emitting diesels run to retirement.

    Fact of the matter is that all diesel vehicles type-approved at Euro 6d-temp and Euro 6d have NOx emissions as low as gassers. According to the ADAC data you provided a few years ago ( https://attachments.priuschat.com/attachment-files/2017/10/133571_ADACecotests.txt ), HC, CO and PN emissions of diesels are generally lower than gassers, including hybrids.

    Recent research has cast doubt on the contribution of NOx emissions to secondary ambient PM2.5 ( https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2019GL082028 ). In that study, control of NOx emissions is ineffective in reducing ambient nitrate PM2.5, but control of VOC emissions is effective.


    Sorry, didn't realize that any defense of diesel is off-limits here.
     
  14. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    um - no... please re-read Peterson's header;
    " Long-Range EVs Are The Antithesis Of Efficiency .... " & From Webster - antithesis is defined as, "the direct opposite" . Ie; ev's are the opposite of efficiency - opposite of sustainability.
    It is disingenuous to defend this (insert your favorite ad hominem here) person's motive - or to try to defend his motive(s) .
    His point is dishonest on several fronts. Dishonest in that he presumes his readers are so stupid as to believe you have to have a massive World supply of batteries before you start building battery cars .... & dishonest trying to convince readers there's not enough materials to build batteries - on that nonexistent scale. The only lie that Peterson didn't toss into this claptrap was the old, "there's not enough electricity in the whole wide world to have all the cars in the world on batteries.
    This guy doesn't pass the sniff test.
    wait - the 1st to open the diesel dialogue was Post #53 in this thread.
    Unringing the bell?

    .
     
    #94 hill, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    As I stated, the official tests do not reflect how cars are actually driven today. Most of them are also light load engine loads. The regulatory limits were set with this knowledge.

    So a car exceeding those limits on a real world drive, which introduces more variables into the test, is not proof of cheating in and of itself. Cleaning up ICE exhaust is not easy. If it was, we wouldn't have had to taken decades to advance the technology, nor would anybody need to cheat.

    A Norwegian study into diesel emissions found that buses and trucks exceed the EU limits by less than cars. The pressure to pass, and thus cheat, isn't going to be much different between the two markets. So the difference likely comes down to the catalytic converters. They need to be hot to work properly. The smaller ones on cars are going to shed heat quicker, and buses have the extra space for larger units.

    The move towards mild hybrids being the norm will mean equipment like heated catalytic converters become more feasible.
    Then the study saying hybrids are the best use of resources for reducing carbon emissions, also supports using diesels over gasoline cars.

    I may have been the first to mention diesel, but I was comparing the burning of it outside of an engine to the burning of plastic. No matter the fuel or energy source, a car fire is a mini environmental disaster.
     
    #95 Trollbait, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  16. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    This is interesting; the thing that concerns me, however (without reading the article) is that my Gen 2 Prius uses electric motors. The battery uses nickel, maybe lithium in the future - all easy things to find. The rare earth metals in the motors are an issue - recycling will help with that. China will also help, as they have the ability to mine all of Tibet after they 'liberated' Tibet a few decades ago....

    What I find interesting is that MG1 would be powerful enough to drive my car in a fairly gentle manner. It can generate maybe 30HP. I've seen MG2 do 65HP (briefly). If I took MG2, gave it improved cooling, put a big lithium battery on it, I have a nice EV.

    Therefore, hybrids use the same amount of rare earth metals as EVs. Maybe even more (two motors rather than one...). So the argument says we should go to gasoline vehicles, which is unsustainable. I don't know if the article mentions hydrogen, but I believe practical hydrogen vehicles are coming very soon, probably around the same time that a hydrogen fusion reactor comes online for true clean electrical energy and a clean future for our planet!
     
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  17. landspeed

    landspeed Active Member

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    I think the flack is due to it being such a contentious topic! I am probably very guilty as I drive my Prius daily and my Leaf is just parked up, since my Prius battery did *not* like being left alone. I am going to start alternating soon.

    What I would love to see would be a Prius with a Leaf battery. In fact, a Prius Prime would do me fine (except for the fact that I would lose full EV commutes after 30% battery degradation). I would be happy if the world moved to higher-capacity plug-in hybrids (maybe 60-70km EV range, and a modular battery, maybe in four parts, so you can swap packs in and out at will (by a trained mechanic but compartmentalised and fairly easy to access with the right tools, to make maintenance easier etc). Then, gasoline would become a premium item, and we would only use it when truly needed (for very compact energy storage - 500km winter range etc). We would reduce CO2, gas prices could go through the roof, the oil companies would be happy, and we might not totally destroy our planet.

    My long term project is going to be to get a Toyota Hiace 'Jumbo' van, and somehow put the Prius HSD 1.5 in it. The challenge is that the Hiace is rear wheel drive. However, the torque curve and power of the 1.5 HSD would easily run the Hiace. Then it would be a camper van with air-con and all the benefits of a Prius camper, but all the room of a custom built super camper van. Adding a Leaf battery would be the icing on the cake!

    I would love to see a Gen 2 battery pack, filled with Leaf cells and a modified ECU, that is a drop-in replacement for the NiMH (same connectors and the battery ECU talks nicely to the rest of the car). This could allow plug-in charging, dramatically reduced gas usage, and would allow Gen 2 (and newer or older) become almost full EVs most of the time. All that is needed is a modified battery ECU (probably a gateway ECU, a modified Prius ECU, and a Leaf ECU to balance the battery). The regen braking and peak power output from the NiMH is less than that of the Leaf, so the Li Ion would be 'safe' if someone could make such a mod :)
     
  18. Prius Pete

    Prius Pete Active Member

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    As far as I'm concerned, nothing is off-limits. (There are limits) These forums are all for fun and education. Use ad-hominem. Use abuse. Type outright lies. (Absolutely not. That's terrible advice). Advocate EVs, PHEVs, FCV or even diesels. I don't mind but I might reply. The one thing that should never be off-limits on PriusChat is defense of the Prius. Sometimes that seems in short supply. Moderator note: We do not support ad hominem attacks, abuse or outright lies. The world has enough evil, dissidence, conflict and fake news. Don't bring them to this forum.

    Car-makers have been building emission-controlled cars since the 70's. They know what their cars emit. They know what their cars emit in all kinds of different environments and scenarios. If a bunch of students in West Virginia can measure real-world emissions, you can be sure that all manufacturers are able as well. They spend months testing new cars (mules) in all kinds of driving, from LA freeway traffic, to Colorado high altitude to Winnipeg winters. If manufacturers want to know about real-world driving, all they have to do is put a GPS tracker on their test mules. Maybe some rare scenarios are hard to make low-emissions. But if your car is emitting excessively in a common driving scenario in an environment where millions of people live, then your design job is not yet done and you need to keep working to avoid releasing a product that will hurt people's health -- yes even if it passes the official test. No one ever needs to cheat.

    When I see high CO emissions in test results, that indicates to me the cat is probably not being kept warm enough. This is one of the problems in hybrids and PHEVs. The engine shuts off and the cat cools. My 15 year old Prius runs its ICE to warm the cat, even though the battery is charged and running the ICE consumes fuel. Toyota long ago realized this and the CO emissions of its hybrids are kept in the acceptable range, even if it costs fuel. Electrically heated cats may well be needed on some vehicles. Manufacturers that don't keep the cat warm are failing at proper emissions control. (I'm looking at you, Hyundai Ioniq).

    I remember many years ago (don't ask me for a link), Google had its people do a study of worldwide energy requirements versus renewables. At the time, everyone was saying solar, wind and hydro was all we needed to power the future. Google's study concluded renewables would be insufficient. We needed nuclear and maybe other sources for a considerable period of time going forward. Nowadays, many see a world where everyone drives an EV, powered by low-carbon energy and they see that happening soon. Sometimes it is important for someone to take a vision like that and do the math and figure out if it really works on a worldwide scale. I'm no expert on global mineral supply. I think Peterson knows a lot more than me about that. Maybe he's right in his calculations, maybe he's not. But he is not alone in questioning whether an all EV future is possible in time to avert climate catastrophe. There is nothing wrong with doing the analysis and trying to find where the problems might lie (or, where the investment opportunities might lie). There is nothing wrong with suggesting that maybe existing car technologies such as hybrids might be the best short-term approach, particularly if they are better accepted for now by the mass market.

    Looking at the ADAC tests of the latest Golf TDI, yes its emissions are now good. Now that diesels like that Golf are properly emissions compliant, we can now do a proper comparison against other compliant cars such as the 3 year old 2016 Prius on CO2 emissions. ADAC's Prius test emitted 114 g/km of CO2 and the Golf emitted 158. The Prius fuel consumption was 4.1 l/100km, the Golf 5.0. That's 38% more CO2 from the Golf. Prius costs less than the automatic Golf TDI (in the UK at least). Prius has proven long-term reliability and low maintenance. TDI has a legacy of carbon-buildup, DPF problems, problems when driven only short distances, high-pressure fuel pump disintegrations etc. I assume it also needs DEF.

    Or we can look at the 2019 Rav4 Hybrid vs the Tiguan TDI tested Feb 2019. The Tiguan exceeds the 80 mg/km NOx limit (slightly) at 91mg/km. The Rav4 Hybrid is fully compliant (although its CO is on the high side at 609mg/km, Euro6 allows 1000mg for non-diesels). Despite the Rav4 being larger, ADAC measured its CO2 at 153 g/km vs the Tiguan at 195 (27% higher). UK price for the automatic Tiguan TDI is £31095. The Rav4 Hybrid costs £29,940.

    I did an analysis on TrueDelta of repair trips/year according to brand and vehicle age. I found that, on average, a 12 year old Toyota had fewer repair trips than a 6 year old VW. I concluded (perhaps this was a stretch), that Toyotas last twice as long as VWs. Surely that has to save CO2.

    It seems to me that, even in the UK where German diesels have ruled, Toyota hybrids save more CO2, cost less to buy, cost less to run and last longer. Diesel -- who needs it?
     
    #98 Prius Pete, Jun 25, 2019
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  19. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    I agree with Bosco with everything except I don't know whether Seeking Alpha is a shill for oil industry. Interestingly, EV advocates use this same strategy to disparage HFCVs. Everyone's turned partisan. It's difficult to know if people really believe what they write or if their strings are being pulled.
     
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  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    no strings .... it's just correcting lobbyists' lies . Some HFCV test programs run quietly in the background. Others - deliberately run frontal attacks against ev's - such as Toyota/Lexus's dishonest smear campaign below;
    Lexus-talking-trash-on-EVs-1.png
    Smearing is implemented when the opponent has the goods on you, and they begin to leave you in the dust, making your stuff look foolish. The dishonest smear above is a perfect example. Plugins sales took off at a much faster pace than either hydrogen (promised 'in just 10yrs' - for the past 4+ decades) or HEV's. Nothing wrong with regular hybrids. Nothing wrong with hydrogen. BUT - the trillion dollar cost of fuel cell "never ready" Tech is being laid on the backs of California taxpayers, mostly. Even using the cheapest source of fuel to reform hydrogen (non-renewables) the cost is multiples above ICE, and/or electric - not to mention the vehicles. Hydrogen's only exhaust is water? Never mentioning the non-renewables that were releasing CO2 for reforming? .... or mountains of coal ash?
    So - if anyone desires to say it's "disparaging"... to just set the record straight when the BS thickness gets up to your eyeballs ... so be it.
    Fact is - it was the other 2 forms of Transportation Tech that fired the first volleys. Sure - plugin advocates could just roll over. Would that be preferred?
    .
     
    #100 hill, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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