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Here there be Dragons.....

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by ETC(SS), Mar 8, 2019.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I always thought that the B-24 Liberator got a bad wrap Dubbaya Dubbaya the second.

    The Fortress was first, somewhat more pleasing to the eye than its shipping-crate inspired rival, and was a little easier to fly.
    However (comma!!!) they made 50-percent more B24's than they did B17's for a reason.
    In every other realm it could be argued that the Consolidated B24 was a better aircraft.
    It was faster, carried more payload, arguably more rugged, and had longer range.

    But!!!
    It was butt ugly.
    If you think that this is not important, ask Boeing how their F32 sales are going. ;)
    Ask nicely.
    They're having a rough week over there.

    Speaking of irony, two military platforms that got a PR boost During the first Gulf war were the HMMWV and the A-10 "Warthog" each despite their somewhat utilitarian aesthetics.
    People think that the 'hog was the harbinger of death for Iraqi tanks, but another aircraft un-beloved for its looks, the F-111 Aardvark almost certainly killed more....but they almost always flew at night.

    Fun Fact:
    The 'vark scored the first aerial victory in the Gulf War....while flying unarmed! (It was a reccie bird)
    The Iraqi Mirage got a missile off, but the 111, maneuvering to avoid, caused its adversary to lose SA and plow into the ground.
     
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    From aviation-history.com, built numbers of US piston-powered bombers were approximately:

    B-17 12,600
    B-24 6,700
    B-29 4,000

    It may be that some of B-17 charm came from mid-1930s design based on best guesses. By mid-1940s things were much more aero-dynamic sciency. Also B-29 building bulge came very late in war, with last ones going directly from production line to scrapping.

    A later documentary, if it happened, might put this trio into context of battle hardiness and total loads delivered. Both contributed to their historical roles.
     
  4. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Ah....the discrimination continues.
    Consolidated B-24 Liberator - Wikipedia
    B-24 | aircraft | Britannica.com
    B-24 Liberator bomber model numbers, production numbers and assembly plants

    MY B-24 hull count is closer to 18,500.

    ...and finally....
    Why no Consolidated B-24 Liberators in World War II movies? | Belleville News-Democrat

    One of the more interesting (and underappreciated) missions of the B24 was to try and close the mid-Atlantic gap when battling Nazi Germany's Unterseeboots.
    Radar equipped Liberators would patrol the night skies sniffing around for U-boats running on the surface and charging their batteries at night - as they were wont to do because of 1940's "range anxiety."

    SO....here's where it gets interesting.
    Well...at least for me.
    I read where some crews would chop power and try to pounce on the boat before the Germans could pull the cork and submerge - something that was very VERY difficult to do in the B24 which is difficult to fly even on four running engines.

    This led to 2 technological developments, spearheaded by das Germans:

    1. ESM....or electromagnetic surveillance measures. Think of a 1940's Radar Detector.
    Naxos radar detector - Wikipedia

    B. The Schnorchel or submarine snorkel. The Brits actually came up with this idea first but they never made much use of it because.....they weren't getting their boats blown out of the water as regularly as the Nazis.
    Snorkeling isn't as straight-forward as one might presume - especially on the high seas, and we didn't really use this technology until we HAD to....post WWII.
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Musky Dragon launched 60 communication satellites into LEO. Plan is for 12,000 more. Unintended consequences are possible:

    SpaceX satellites pose new headache for astronomers

    Just after dusk or before dawn, viewers under dark skies can already observe satellite passes. Those light shows promise to become much more ornate.
     
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I have to say that I have Elon’s back on this one, and even my humble knowledge of astronomy informs me that this is a low-rent story, and the image of “brightly-lit Space-X satellites” is somewhat misleading, at best.

    Musk pointed out in the story (non-puzzlingly, to this reader) that telescopes peering deep into space need to BE in space. Terrestrial telescopes are usually pointed at celestial objects that don’t smoke along at 28,000 kph and the momentary occulting of these objects by a shoebox sized object should not pose a large technical problem for folks that are, like, good at math and stuff.

    As far as the ‘light pollution’ from these satellites, even the poorly written article pointed out that most urban folk living in their brightly illuminated alabaster jungles will not even be able to see them.
    The picture that accompanied the “article” seems to be a bit magnified, and the satellites, once properly oriented and at their assigned ‘cruising altitude’ will probably be a little bit harder to see since, as they say in the trucking industry, they will have the shiny side pointed up.

    MY industry, unlike those mentioned in the story, REALLY IS threatened by Space-X, since there will be a somewhat reduced ROI on building cell towers and burying glass if somebody can get broadband internet for a fraction of the price and not have to be bombarded with insulting ads and Byzantine pricing bundles....just by buying a satellite receiver.

    However (comma!) universal highly affordable broadband is an important get, and if people like me have to find more honest work as a result I think that it will be WORTH IT in the long run!
    Elon has an unfortunate history with over-promising and under-delivery...so I think I’ll worry about having to find another job later on.

    Perhaps journalism.

    Seems you don’t have to be very smart or work very hard to make a living doing THAT.
     
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, it also drew a somewhat misleading response here.
    'Should be' is not the same as "need to be". Yes, much of the very top end stuff ought to moved up there. But cost and capacity and accessibility mean that the great majority of the work will always be done from the ground.
    Dark objects momentarily occulting point sources is not a primary issue here.
    There was a bit too much diversion in that direction, yes, but we mustn't conflate lay people in the bright urban jungles with scientists and astronomers (including amateur).
    Satellites tend to be shiny all the way around, at least optically. But in the radio spectrum, they tend to have their 'shiny side' pointed right at us.
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Doing radio astronomy from surface of a planet covered with, and surrounded by radio sources? Ultimately it stops working.

    Human information-transfer needs are probably much more important than radio astronomy. Fine. On to the Moon.

    If there is radio 'background' there, it ain't us :rolleyes:
     
  9. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    There are numerous existing official Radio Quiet Zones, eleven listed here: Radio Quiet Zones – Cosmic Reflections

    Other areas can also be quiet, especially remote islands. I'd hope that massive satellite networks don't stomp all over these.
     
  10. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Quiet zone list seems complete (I checked for FAST :) )

    Quiet zones' functions are incomplete. Nobody even bothers to try radio astronomy below 1000 Mhz (500 Mhz?) on earth because backgrounds are too high. Too the moon...
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Terrestrial radio astronomy:

     
    ETC(SS) and fuzzy1 like this.
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    It has been argued that human (wetware) exploration of space has lagged greatly since 1972. Has been so argued here. Against that, technological exploration of space has been in-effing-credible since then. Including technologies beyond anyone's imagination at that time.

    Only in the sense of human-body tossing could it be said that 'we' have turned our backs on space exploration. I did not see any summary/celebration of what has been learned from space tech in 50 years since Apollo, even though it seems appropriate. Perhaps Scientific American or National Geographic has something in work...
     
  15. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    It has also been argued that two specific pieces of wetware, the Space Shuttle and the International Space Station, very seriously hobbled the dryware exploration projects by consuming such a huge chunk of the available resources, leaving the rest of the field greatly underfunded.
     
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  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Persistently putting bodies into LEO, and building structures to house them were not small things. Those boxes have been checked at perhaps excessive costs.

    Count me among those saying real human habitation on Moon is logically next. It will cost 'ISS-scale' money.

    Going to Mars prior will yield photos of flags and footprints, and overpriced samples returned. Competing superpowers are not in a propaganda hunt here, so might we not fall back on logic for sequentially more distant body tossing?
     
    #76 tochatihu, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Gonna have to send beans there eventually....

    Might as well get started.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Virgin Galactic completed 4th flight to above 80 km, this time with billionaire Branson on board. After one (or a few) more, the paying customers will get their trips featuring about 3 minutes of floating-around time.

    The Spaceport in New Mexico is interesting in several ways. I have not seen it mentioned that it is about 140 km from Trinity site of 1945 fame. With a bit of time travel, that would have been a heckuva view.

    Next up is Blue Origin’s New Shepard, planned July 20, from Van Horn TX. It will fly above 100 km, has not carried people before, but will have billionaire Bezos on board and Wally Funk, a qualified but never flown Mercury-era astronaut. One seat goes to an unnamed auction winner who paid quite a lot.

    Much has been made of Blue Origin’s higher peak altitude, specifically above von Kármán line, the most widely accepted definition of ‘space begins here’. For arriving meteors, it is also the level where glowing starts. From their perspective, ‘space ends here’. But one must remember that Alan Shepard’s (old Shepard, if you will) 1961 May flight peaked at 200 km.

    As readers may be considering one of these excursions, let’s compare. My impression is that each provides about 3 minutes of weightlessness. Views from 80 vs. 100 km up are probably similar (horizon about 1000 km away), but VG (on a clear winter day) will reveal more snowy mountains. BO flight lasts about 10 minutes, while VG is an hour, mostly attached to carrier jet toodling up to ‘drop height’ about 13 km. G forces of each would not exceed 3 (civilians being squishy) but I don’t know if they differ.

    A larger difference would occur if BO has a rocket problem, and the capsule would run away by its solid rocket booster, pop parachutes, and land ‘firmly’. Customers hope to avoid that (I suppose), but it would really be the closest thing to an astronaut experience.

    Alan Shepard was first up in Mercury program, which used repurposed Redstone and Atlas ICBMs. Nobody gets rides like that anymore.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    US' lower definition of 'space' and rewarding astronaut wings may have come from X-15 program. In which 12 enormously qualified and brave pilots drove those dragons. Michael Adams died, and Neil Armstrong is most remembered for other things. The other 10 deserve better.

    Nobody gets rides like that anymore.
     
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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