Fly the Flag Campaign

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 6 2006, 11:27 AM) [snapback]315308[/snapback]</div>

I completely agree with Daniel on this. As someone who teaches Vietnamese history, including the tragic and unnecessary war fought there by the U.S., I've reached the same conclusions. I too weep for all victims of violence, and feel that all who perpetrate such violence must be held accountable for it. While we so easily sweep distant violence under the rug, to retain our humanity we must face it, whether by committed by foreign governments or our own. The little Iraqi children killed by U.S. bombs or by soldiers at a checkpoint are as much victims of needless violence as those killed by terrorists, whether in Europe or the U.S. Moreover, whatever our political views, we must ultimately face the reality that those innocents killed with our tax dollars are on our consciences. Whether we like it or not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 8 2006, 03:30 PM) [snapback]316516[/snapback]</div>

When I first read Daniel's response to Schmika last night, I thought hmmm... that will give Schmika something to think about. I must say I was expecting more than this.

Just because someone does not believe what you do, does not mean they don't believe in anything. What an extremely offensive and disrespectful thing to say. This freedom of religion concept works both ways, Karl. If you expect to be granted the right to form your own opinions and beliefs, regardless of what others may think of them, you must grant others the same right.

 

OH JK... I don't see u weeping for all the people killed in detroit or philly.... get a grip and stop hugging that tree and memories of bj bill clinton.... These people that we are dropping bombs on want to kill u.. u all don't get it. France has houses to rent... they are cut and run nation like u want us to be... I have worn the cloth of our country for 25 years and this war has started a long time ago... well to be honest when carter let them have our people in iran and did nothing... so with all that said... I just don't understand how u all think if we just talk all is gonna be well... hummm
Monks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 6 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]315308[/snapback]</div>

This is a hard one to answer quickly. I respect your opinion, in this post and previous posts. However, the flag is commonly seen as belonging to the people. In this country and others, our flag or the native flag is not reserved for government use only. My feeling is that, on a holiday or day of national significance, like 9/11, it's more a sign of solidarity with fellow countryman than a sign of support of the current administration. However many conservatives might take it to mean those showing flags are in agreement with current policies since they somehow seem to equate patriotism and unquestioning agreement with the President.

As far as past wrongs go, and innocent lives, that's a hard call. Yes, Jesus and the New Testament support non-violence, going so far as passively dying when he could have struck down his accusers (altho Peter and Paul take a somewhat harder line). (Whether or not you personally believe it, that's still the basis of Chrisitianity). It seems many modern conservatives prefer the Old Testament approach of a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye, to the exclusion of any other approach.

But there is a point when sacrificing a few for the many is a necessary step. Calculating the few vs. many ratio is very tough, especially when you don't know all the facts yet. In hindsight Vietnam was a mistake. But obviously we had to stop Hitler. We had to stop Milosevic. Stalin was another good candidate, IMO. And I think we needed to stop Saddam Hussein, altho for crimes against humanity (and crimes against nature), not for the pretense that he might have weapons of mass destruction that he might use against us. He certainly wasn't connected to 9/11. And we shouldn't have put civilians in charge of a military job (like we also did in Vietnam, but not the first Gulf War) and try to make do with too few soldiers, allowing the looting, then the slowly escalating violence and retaliations while barely keeping things under control. We have shown thru detaining prisoners without charge and torturing that we are no better than the terrorists, so we have lost our moral authority in the world. And we have not yet brought freedom to the Iraqis, despite all the carnage. But still, there are some things worth fighting for. Our freedom, and (with precautions) the freedom of people who cannot defend themselves against oppression, is a thing worth fighting for.

 

Let talk about Torture, What happened at the prision was BS.. they do worse in collage.. as for Gitmo well the live like kings down there the only torture is against our guards. jeezzzzz the bottom line is go over to the middle east and take a visit.. I have 13 times then talk s**t.
Monks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 8 2006, 12:30 PM) [snapback]316516[/snapback]</div>

Having read the Gospels and some fair chunks of the rest of the Bible, I am perfectly capable of speaking about Jesus's teachings. Merely because I do not believe that he was god, does not preclude me from understanding him.

As for beliefs, I believe, as Jesus clearly did, in the inherent worth and dignity of all people, and the right to life of all people. You, who are willing to kill children you have never met, as the "unavoidable" price of destroying a man you regard as an enemy of your country, are clearly further from the teachings of Jesus than I am. Paul, of course, saw it your way. You are not a Christian at all: You are a Paulist: You believe that Jesus was god, but you reject his teachings as irrelevant. I do not believe in god, and therefore do not believe that Jesus was god, but I place great value on his moral teachings.

One of the most fundamental of Jesus's teachings, was that this world is transitory, and that the things of this world do not matter: It does not matter what happens to your body, or your country, or whether you are "free" or not. Only the salvation of your soul matters. In this, obviously, I do not agree with Jesus. But you have made it clear that you do not agree with him either, as you are willing to kill (in violation of the Commandments and in direct disobedience to Jesus) in order to save your material way of life.

You no more believe in Jesus than I do. You worship him as god, but you blaspheme everything he tried to teach about how to be a member of the human family.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 6 2006, 11:27 AM) [snapback]315308[/snapback]</div>

Actually more wars have been started by demoncrats than conservatives. Strike 1.
No one actually drops bombs or orders that bombs be dropped on children from this country unless they are looney like you. Strike 2.
If you do not wish you're freedom to be purchased at the cost of innocent lives then please leave. I suggest somewhere in the MiddleEast say Iran or Syria. Your freedom is being purchased for you on a daily basis and it's cost is paid with blood. Strike 3!

So you'll weep for the poor innocent child and other victims of terrorist but you won't left a finger to help them, what a piece of work. :angry:

Wildkow

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Sep 8 2006, 11:12 PM) [snapback]316866[/snapback]</div>

1. Democrats are often as conservative as Republicans. LBJ, for example, was moderate on social issues like race, but was conservative on foreign policy (though he lied and campaigned as a liberal).

2. Everyone knows that bombs dropped on civilian areas will kill civilians, including children. Claiming that you'd rather those bombs only killed bad guys doesn't change the fact. If you drop a bomb, and you know children will be killed by it, and you choose to drop it anyway, you're responsible. Simple as that.

3. Conservatives have been telling me to leave the country if I disagree with the president ever since I began protesting the Vietnam war. That ain't how it works. You don't get to decide who gets to stay and who has to leave. (I'm reminded of the general who's giving the troops a pep talk: "Men, some of you will die out there today, but it's a price I'm willing to pay." In your case, the deaths of other peoples' children is a price you are willing to pay. And you call yourself a Christian???)

4. I've been involved with the anti-war movements since I was a teen-ager. I've put time, energy, and money into the effort to change the way our country thinks about the world, and the way it treats other countries and its own people, for my entire adult life. I've marched in demonstrations, refused the draft, written to my legislators, and even been to prison. You call this "... not [lifting] a finger to help ..." ??? True, I have not killed anyone to prove that killing is wrong, but that's the whole point!

Ball 4. He walks. (My side is losing the game. I admit that. You guys control the government. I'm only on first and all those dead children count as runs on your side of the scoreboard. And my side's chances of winning may be ten thousand to one against. But I'm not quitting. Some folks are forced to leave, and some choose to leave, but I'm in the game until the end.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 9 2006, 09:01 AM) [snapback]316910[/snapback]</div>

Well said. I doubt those who tell you to leave the country will be able to respond in as well a thought out manner.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Sep 8 2006, 03:43 PM) [snapback]316519[/snapback]</div>

I don't feel like looking it up right now...but a passage in the bible speaks about non-believers not being able to truly understand the word of God. Secularists can put any interpretation they want...while they might luck out and be valid...I would not trust ANY interpretation by a non-Christian. I guess I should qualify my definition of a Christion. A Christion is not someone who simply believes Christ exists, but rather a Christian is a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour.

Make sense now????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Sep 8 2006, 05:05 PM) [snapback]316584[/snapback]</div>

I defined "Believe in" as willing to die for. Danial said he would die for nothing...ergo, by my definition.....How is that disrespectful?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 8 2006, 09:11 PM) [snapback]316727[/snapback]</div>

By my earlier post...I refer you to a non-believer not being able to truly understand the teachings of Jesus...I stand by that. Is a "Paulist" a person who follows the Apostle Paul? If so, then how to you reconcile Paul stating he is simply a "prisoner" of Jesus Christ and is the apostle to the Gentiles. He did NOT create a separate church.

Just because I prepare my rewards in heaven and follow Christ as best I know how, does not stop me from trying to do the best I can here on earth.

Daniel, I want peace on earth, goodwill toward man here on earth. I want that ALL people shall be saved (yes, even you). We just disagree on HOW that will be accomplished. On earthly things, my opinion is just as valid as yours. On a heavenly level....you're wrong, I am right. Simple!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Sep 6 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]315418[/snapback]</div>

Normally, it should be flown at full mast. Half mast is for a period of mourning after the death of a prominent person, as specified in the law, or as declared by a sitting President. The only exception is on Memorial Day, when the flag is flown at half mast until noon, then raised for the remainder of the day.

It would not be disrespectful to follow that on 9/11, if you wish. There is no penalty in for any of this, as long as you mean no disrespect by flying it at half mast for half a day.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 9 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]317113[/snapback]</div>

Of course, an internally-inconsistent book, which relies for its acceptance on insisting that it be accepted unquestioningly, without regard for common sense or logic, and without regard to its own internal contradictions, must assert that those who do not accept it unquestioningly cannot properly understand it. Your assertion that I cannot understand it is therefore circular and invalid.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 9 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]317113[/snapback]</div>

Your definition of belief is your own. I reject your definition. I believe that the chair I am sitting on actually exists, but I am not willing to die for it. If a man were to put a gun to my head and demand that I renounce my belief that this chair is real, I would do as he insists. Gallileo, faced with the threat of torture, was not willing to die for his belief that the Earth revolves around the sun. But he believed it nonetheless. And as it turned out, he was right, and the priests who took their understanding from the Bible were wrong.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 9 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]317113[/snapback]</div>

As above, you assert that a non-believer cannot understand, because your theology is so self-contradictory that your only defense of it is to make such assertions.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 9 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]317113[/snapback]</div>

Agreed. You think it can be accomplished by rejecting everything taught by the man you call a god. I think it can only be accomplished by adopting those ancient and universal principles adopted by that same man: respect for the inherent worth and dignity of all people.

How many children would Jesus have killed to overthrow a bad government? You seem to think the answer is, "As many as it takes." I think the answer is Zero. There's where our difference lies.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 9 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]317113[/snapback]</div>

Our friend Daniel has openly supported communists, so he is on what I would call the far left fringe. People on the edges often think they know more than everyone else.

Jesus did not preach non-violence, and was not anti-military. His comment to the Roman soldier is evidence that He respected the soldier's calling (otherwise, He would have told him to give up his commission).

There has been 2000 years of scholarly study of the scriptures and Christian thought by men much smarter than any of us, yet Daniel purports to say he knows more than they did, and then lecture us on what we should believe.

The biggest mass murderers of the last century shared Daniel's views on the left. Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are strange bedfellows when you are lecturing people on their beliefs.

 

It's time to get over 9/11 and move on. Get a life!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brasche @ Sep 9 2006, 10:01 PM) [snapback]317182[/snapback]</div>

I am willing....any Islamo-fascists willing to join me????

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brasche @ Sep 9 2006, 07:01 PM) [snapback]317182[/snapback]</div>

I have 2,948 reasons not to:

http://www.september11victims.com/septembe...ictims_list.htm

Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 9 2006, 06:50 PM) [snapback]317180[/snapback]</div>

Communism, as defined by its premier modern proponent, Karl Mark, is a system of social organization in which all economic activity is voluntary ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his need") with no other incentives than an altruistic desire to be a productive member of society; and in which there is no coercive government (the whithering away of the state). It is a special form of anarchism. While the people you mention below are commonly labelled as communists, they were as far from communism as the moon is from a glass of beer. Real communism is a utopia which no sane person could oppose, were it possible, but which (as Marx also said) would require a fundamental change in human nature.

Jesus, however, advocated something very like communism when he told people to share all they had voluntarily, and to love their neighbor as themselves.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 9 2006, 06:50 PM) [snapback]317180[/snapback]</div>

None of the people you name shared my beliefs. I have stated over and over again that there is never any justification for killing people. You slander me when you suggest that I have anything in common with them. You either have read nothing I have posted, or else you are a rogue and a villan for intentionally misrepresenting me. If there is any point in your argument, it is to demonstrate the shortcomings of labels such as "left" and "right," which allow you to most preposterously lump pacifists with killers by asserting that both are "far left." In the end, all you accomplish is to destroy any credibility you might have had.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 10 2006, 05:41 AM) [snapback]317288[/snapback]</div>

Dude! I say get some rest all this early morning hypocrisy is straining you're brain. [attachmentid=4950] Not the first time I have mention this don't want you to blow a gasket!


[attachmentid=4951]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 9 2006, 09:50 PM) [snapback]317180[/snapback]</div>

I am sorry fshagan, but you display no logic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Wildkow @ Sep 10 2006, 08:53 AM) [snapback]317294[/snapback]</div>

are you taking any classes this semester?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 6 2006, 06:22 AM) [snapback]315078[/snapback]</div>

How sensitive and caring of you. I'm sure she'll appreciate that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 8 2006, 02:30 PM) [snapback]316516[/snapback]</div>

Does that mean that Republicans have no business speaking on the Democratic platform, since they are not Democrats?

I don't think you have to be a Christian to be familiar with the teachings of Jesus. And I also think that sometimes it takes some distance to observe and evaluate. Daniel has observed that some Christians don't seem to be following the words of Jesus in their deeds. I think that's a valid point. I'm a Christian and I've seen plenty of Christians that don't speak or behave in a Christian-like manner. I think there's a word of it. Oh,.....hypocrites. (I especially like the ones that pick and choose which bible passages to quote and follow and which to dismiss and ignore.)

Daniel appears to be quite literate and well read. I trust Daniel to be able to spot a Pharisee when he sees one.