1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Auto Stop Start in non hybrid

Discussion in 'Toyota Hybrids and EVs' started by CamryDriver, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    2,233
    1,596
    0
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
    Or, in the case of a Prime, from the wall outlet.
     
  2. mpg_numbers_guy

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    116
    64
    0
    Location:
    VA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    And we all know how expensive AC is to run at home in the summer from the wall outlet.
     
  3. jb in NE

    jb in NE Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    2,233
    1,596
    0
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Premium
    This somewhat depends on the efficiency of your home A/C and insulation of your house. My home A/C is not particularly expensive, but that's not indicative of all installations.

    I do find that the electric A/C in the Prime is very efficient. According to the numbers from Hybrid Assistant, it is less than 1 Kw at full load. About 1 HP, and at cruising speed of 60 mph the Prime probably needs 10 times that for propulsion alone. And once the cabin cools, the A/C is not operating at full load.

    Edit - I looked at some Hybrid Assistant outputs, and at 60 mph with the A/C on, it looks like 20 Kw is the average load when the engine is running (there is quite a bit of data scatter). So, 1 Kw is 5% of the total load, and once the engine reaches its sweet spot of low 2000 RPM range, it is pretty efficient. The graph below was from a 70 mph run across Iowa showing the efficiency vs. RPM.

    Just a bit of data, but it's indicative of efficiency.

    From Clipboard.jpg
     
    #43 jb in NE, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,822
    16,059
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    @Skylis A did an analysis of the current load. The heater uses more electricity than the A/C compressor for cooling in the summer.

    Estimated EV penalties for various heating cooling and lights | PriusChat

    Again, I've noticed a difference in between the Gen 2, 3 and Prime. In the Gen 2, the A/C lasts 8 mins if you let it run while stopped. The Eco Mode in the Gen 3 lasts a bit longer but I don't recall ever officially timing it. (There is a thread somewhere that shows the max wattage of the compressor in the Gen 3 with and without Eco Mode).

    In the Prime, I've been stuck in traffic for 30-40 mins and I might lose a 2% on the Prime to climate.. that's about 100Wh. Or, worst case scenario, I use between 15-20% of battery capacity to get to work. At 5.3kWh actual, that's 1.06kWh (using 20%). An A/C Load Ratio of 20% (again, worst-case scenario), puts the number at 0.2*1.06 = 0.212kWh = 212Wh. This is with Eco Heat/Cool on and S-Flow with driver priority.

    A Gen 2 Prius goes from 80-20% from 8 bars to 0 bars. Usually your car is at 6 bars (or at the 68% true SOC mark) and you drain down to the end of 2 bars before the engine kicks in. That's near 40%. Ok so that's 28%. A Gen 2 NiMH battery has ~1.3kWh (6.5Ah*201.6V) so draining the battery with will take 367Wh (0.28*1310Wh).

    So, sitting in traffic for 30-40 minutes uses ~212Wh for the A/C and to crawl/inch forward.

    Sitting idle with the A/C running in a Gen 2 Prius for 8 minutes uses 367Wh.

    I don't know about you, but that's quite an improvement.

    Both. The Gen 4 with the Li-Ion battery can easily top back up to 6 bars. Anyone who's own a Gen 2/3 will be surprised at how quickly the battery will drain and top up if they get a Gen 4 with Li-Ion battery. Freaked me out the first time... but it helps with efficiency.

    The A/C Load Ratio is based on the total kWh used so it's hard to be consistent unless you drive the exact same distance every day.

    Yeah I run the A/C quite frequently too as the Eco Heat/Cool and the S-Flow can help manage the energy use very well.
     
    Mendel Leisk and alanclarkeau like this.
  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,822
    16,059
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Here’s today’s numbers. It’s not particularly hot today 20°C/68°F) and it was cloudy.

    AEF4A012-4CCC-4116-8633-379C13B1AD5E.jpeg

    997F2782-C881-45BF-AE76-0354B19EAD09.jpeg

    35km today at 11.6kWh/100km efficiency so I used 4.06kWh of energy. 5% of that was used for the climate control. A/C on, Eco Heat/Cool on, S-Flow auto (so it was front seat for most of the drive as I had a front passenger), temp set at 23.5°C/74°F.

    So 5% of 4.06kWh is 0.203 or 203Wh. This is much less than the commute example I gave above as I only travelled about 1/3rd the distance and it was much hotter (26°C/78°F) and in full sun for the commute example.
     
    alanclarkeau likes this.
  6. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Generally the more efficient a vehicle the more you will notice AC load. My old Civic Hybrid for example could only produce 93hp and it would cruse on much less so the AC load was a high percentage of the cruising horsepower.

    The AC on the Camry is more efficient and also is a much lower percentage of the 208 available horsepower. I think the Camry has a scroll compressor rather than a piston unit. When the engine is on it tends to make more power than is needed, sending the extra to the battery. Charging the battery is not super efficient. Anyway the AC load is impressively small on the Camry for sure.
     
  7. lech auto air conditionin

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    830
    601
    260
    Location:
    san francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    It’s simple physics it takes energy to move energy we will always have inefficiencies of friction and compression in the larger the differences the larger the energy consumption will be. In a electric car with electric compressor the energy consumed to lower the temperature of the cabin to cool off the HV battery is much less than allowing the cabin to get hot on a 90° or hundred and plus degree day trying to charge and discharge the HV battery the losses are much greater.
    As for heating your vehicle or your home in winter time when it’s 30° outside there’s a lot more potential heat energy in one cubic foot of air to give you the same BTUs of heat output it’s five times more efficient than using a electric heater element.

    When testing the efficiency of an air conditioning system and to get accurate true test results the system Hass to be in perfect working order and on vehicles they have a slow but continuous natural refrigerant leak rate through the hoses and all the seals each year
    The mode of operation the logic controlling a variable electric compressor when the system is just 2 to 4 ounces low on refrigerant on a hot day with a sun heat load on the interior with the thermostat turned down and there’s not enough refrigerant to satisfied the set point the logic reacts by spinning up the compressor faster and consume the more power to try to satisfy the set point that’s consuming more energy and it will never get there because The refrigerant is a few ounces low. All electric or hybrid vehicles with electric compressors take a great hit on their mpg if they’re running just a few ounces low on refrigerant. Not to mention cycling their HV battery more often taking a hit on longevity
     
  8. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Good to know. I suspect my Ridgeline has a very slow leak. The Ridgeline is black so it soaks up heat. The AC works but it works so poorly that it takes 3/4 of the way to work (20 minutes) before it is comfortable in the truck.

    OTOH the Camry Hybrid cools off in a couple of minutes if it has been sitting in the sun or even less time if it has been in the garage. The Camry is white, which helps but I don't think the color accounts for the full difference.

    The Honda dealer added some extra coolant to the Ridgeline years ago when it was under warranty. That seemed to help. It has been many years and the AC still works, just not very well.
     
  9. lech auto air conditionin

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    830
    601
    260
    Location:
    san francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Actually the difference between black and white is a huge difference if both vehicles were sitting in a parking lot exposed to the sun somewhere between 11 AM to 2 PM with clear skies you’ve probably noticed the white cars interior On a 70° day after 82 to 3 hour sun soak you read a temperature somewhere around 90 to110°. At the same time the black vehicle with black interior you’ll be reading somewhere just below 130+.

    Couple years ago I made some videos on this never thought about YouTube or something I should’ve released have to remake that again and this time actually release it on YouTube so people can see how much of a difference color makes.
    Having the black Dash below the windshield reaching a temperature of 147° that is a solid mass of plastic. You have to realize for every pound of material whether it be glass plastic vinyl or leather as you heat all this material in your vehicle it will absorb all the cold air coming out of your ducts and will have to be cold first before the interior of your cabin starts to cool down. Think of it as a very large extremely efficient sponge that just a little of the sponge material soaks up a lot of water like those super crystals in baby diapers.
    It takes time and energy to remove that heat. Take a sewing pin and heated up to 2000° glowing red. Now take the same steel the pin is made out of the size of a construction brick and heat it up to 500°. Now place both of them in front of the cold air ducts of your air-conditioning. In 30 seconds you were given the choice that you have to tightly grab one of them and hold onto it without letting go. Which one will you choose.
     
  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,822
    16,059
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    A couple of tests.

     
    alanclarkeau likes this.
  11. lech auto air conditionin

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    830
    601
    260
    Location:
    san francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    That was good. Too bad their sun shade sucked LOL. HVAC TECHs use our duct wrap. It’s a aluminum material specifically to reflect infrared with a R8 bubble insulation rating. You trace an outline holding it over the outside of your windshield and then cut it out to match. When you inserted inside your vehicle you tuck it up in all the corners so any hot air that does develop on the inside of the windshield there is no flu affect. (Flu affect ) as the air heats up it rises sucking air in from down below and pushing hot air up into the cabin area continuously completing this cycle would add much more heat then if it was sealed off at all corners . It works so much better than anything that is sold to the general public on the retail level. And for HVAC TECHs it’s just a waste product left over at the end of a job of insulating air ducts.
    But everybody who’s had fifth grade science would know this it was covered in class along with doing temperature tests on different colors and explaining the physics behind it
    upload_2019-8-26_6-57-35.jpeg
     
    #51 lech auto air conditionin, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
    Tideland Prius likes this.
  12. mpg_numbers_guy

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    116
    64
    0
    Location:
    VA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    I find that the beige interior on my 06 Insight stays the coolest of any car interior I've been in - with no window tint. Cloth + a lighter colors helps keep the heat out. The Prius has dark gray leather, and get the hottest of any car interior I've been in.

    Keeping the windows cracked is the best bet for keeping heat out.
     
  13. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,822
    16,059
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    A problem that was offset by the solar roof option on the Gen 3. :D
     
    Prodigyplace and alanclarkeau like this.
  14. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    7,041
    7,580
    0
    Location:
    near Brisbane, Australia
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I've had black, cream and tan upholsteries - I've noticed no difference in temperature inside as long as the windows are tinted and a cover like in the YouTube on the front window. The old vinyl felt hottest, leather a little better - but cloth, no matter the colour much the same.
     
  15. mpg_numbers_guy

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    116
    64
    0
    Location:
    VA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    True on that! :)

    IIRC both the Prius and the Insight are supposed to have some sort of invisible window treatment to help reject the heat - but I haven't noticed a difference. The beige leather on our old Sienna trapped heat about the same as the gray cloth on my old civic; both were somewhere in between the Insight and the Prius.

    So far the Insight is the only vehicle I've been in where I can get in the car on a hot summer day and not be instantly baking - warm, yes, but not unlivable until the wind / fan cool the car down.
     
  16. lech auto air conditionin

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    830
    601
    260
    Location:
    san francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Cloth you can’t feel the difference with your hand because it does not conduct heat through touch black metal or glass or hard dense plastic.

    If you want to help heat the house in Winter you change your curtains to black as the sun hits them they will create heat and a convection as the air rises it makes a flu effect like a chimney continuously pulling air that is cooler off the bottom of the floor and raising up along the hot black material heating your room this is white people who have dark curtains in the summertime complain about a hot house and it’s because they have dark curtains .

    Take the same house and change the curtains to bright white can you lose all that extra heating .
     
    alanclarkeau likes this.
  17. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    11,696
    11,317
    0
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    On the former Gen 4 US Trims, only 2 Eco & up has the coating. 1 & 2 do not
    I also notice it appears the coated windows have more cracking complaints here. My Trim 2 was in a windy hailstorm that blew the car sideways across the road and the windshield survived with just some small dents around the trim.
     
  18. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    7,041
    7,580
    0
    Location:
    near Brisbane, Australia
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Yes, I did that in my last house - it had white "blackout" curtain liners on the north (we're southern hemisphere), but darker curtains, so I'd pull them aside to allow the winter sun to hit and warm the darker curtains in winter. In summer, the sun is more overhead, but I'd leave the white liners closed on windows which had the sun hitting it.

    The present house has large verandahs over the north and south of the building, and a carport on most of the eastern side - which provide shade to most windows.

    Where I am, I spend more effort on keeping cool than warm - winter heating bill is almost nil. I'm considering replacing my roof - and it will be with a light-coloured roof for the same reason.
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,700
    11,302
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Use peroxide boiled wood shingles*. Those actually shed heat and cool structures.

    *not available
    Stronger than aluminum, a heavily altered wood cools passively | Ars Technica
     
    alanclarkeau likes this.
  20. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,822
    16,059
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    All trims have “High Solar Heat Absorbing Glass” but only the Two Eco supposedly has an IR reflecting feature as well.

    Each car we’ve had has been cooler than the previous. Our old 97 Corolla got hot even with the beige cloth interior. The 02 Camry was noticeably cooler with a Stone leather interior (medium grey).

    Starting with the Gen 2 Prius, we used the Heatshield sunshade (previous cars used nylon sunshades) so our interiors were cooler.

    Our Gen 3 with the Dark Grey interior was cooler than the Gen 2 with the Bisque (beige) interior, partly because of the solar panel ventilation system.

    A side step into a 2008 smart fortwo which had no heat absorbing glass and even the Heatshield couldn’t save it. It was freaking hot inside. (Yes it had a black interior but so does my current Prime).

    My Prime is definitely cooler than the smart even though they both have black interiors. It also has the darkest tint of any factory tint we’ve had. The small quarter windows are darker than the main door windows that can open. I can’t say if it’s cooler than the Gen 3 since this summer hasn’t been particularly hot.
     
    alanclarkeau and Prodigyplace like this.