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02 project mess

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by gothstone, Sep 29, 2019.

  1. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    2002 Prius
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    My son and I bought a 2002 prius as a project for $500. The battery casing was torn apart, they showed us the wires ripped out of the white block on the main relay.
    The car will turn on, but not go to ready. Trying to start the car cuts power from the display console, when you let off the key it reboots.
    I repaired the wiring on the main relay, though they tore open the sensor with a screw driver creating visible damage, but no torn wires on the wire coil. The battery has definitely been rebuilt and shows 270V so it should basically work. It will need replaced eventually though, its leaking electrolyte from most modules.
    I also ripped out the redundant keyless entry system, remote start, and XM radio they had poorly cobbled in and restored the factory wiring harness.
    Today I got my minivci cable in and running with techstream 10.30.29. It didn't show much more than my bluetooth ODB2 with torque and prius gen1 pids did. Output attached, but basically the primary issue is P1636 with secondary issues of C0279 and C1213.
    I haven't yet bought access to the TIV and pillaged the correct repair manual, so I'm using the 2001 and 2003 versions from cardiagn com for now.
    I followed DTC P1636 from the 2001 diag section. My meter read no voltage between the yellow and brown wires with all cables connected and ket to on. They were in the position predicted by the DTC, but were thin and had silver dashes on them. There were also thicker plain yellow and brown wires, but they were not in the position shown, so I didn't test across those.
    Glad the workflow has me skip the scope test since I don't have one.
    I disconnected the cables at each end and checked the 2 wires for continuity end to end and they were fine. I found no short between them.
    So the DTC would say we need a new HV ECU.

    Nothing is off the table here. I can tell the HV ECU has been removed before, but I was clearly the first to actually open the box. I found no visible issues. It is model 89981-47061. I have no clue what model the ECU is, I didn't actually rip it out to test voltage as recommended.
    The inverter has been opened before as well, the proke several of the screws. :(

    So can I safely assume the HV ECU is either bad or was replaced with too old a model and that this is why I can't get any data from the HV control and HV battery modules?
    If so I will grab a 89981-47063 from ebay. We are just trying to keep from throwing too much money at this till we can at least verify the ICE can run and MG1 and MG@ aren't frozen.

    Oh, currently doing all work and testing using a real car battery always on a smart charger instead of the toy 12v that keep dying.

    Sorry for such a long post, but wanted to make sure i provided all the info!
     

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  2. ronlewis

    ronlewis Active Member

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    Personally, I would just get another battery. With that leakage, you're going to need one soon anyway. You didn't say how many miles it has, but with a good battery, you'd probably be good for another 100,000 miles - not bad for such a small investment. As you've learned, these cars can be had cheap - find one that's been wrecked beyond repair then you know the battery was good when it wrecked and almost certainly still is (absent damage in that area and if it's not been sitting up a long time). Actually, if you find one with kinda high mileage, it'll probably have already replaced the original battery.

    That'll give you a parts car with all kinds of things you can use now or later. Honestly, you can get these cheap enough that selling the carcass of your parts car to a metal recycler with get you a lot of your money back. Just the amount of time you'll waste trying to diagnose and repair, with no guarantee that you'll ever figure it out, is more than another $500 car. FYI, I just did exactly that - bought a run and drive with a wrecked front end for less than $500. While I understand the value of teaching the kid how to diagnose and fix, you also want to teach him how to make value-based decisions.
     
  3. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    Thanks Ron, i totaly get where your coming from. It's right at 250k. We just didn't want to add battery expense untill we could prove the engine, motors, and inverter were ok. If we can get is basicaly started and know those are ok a battery is definately inline. We are considering referbing the battery ourselvs mostly because he wants to, but we figure after testing modules, if we need to replace more than 3 or 4 modules we will just get a nice rebuilt battery from greentekauto here in town. Cheap parts Prii are surprisingly rare in Kansas City Metro, and the junkyards in the area charge refurb prices for their unknown battery packs.

    Yesterday i looked closer at the ABS errors. One lead me to testing and confirming the ABS Solonoid Relay is bad, so I'll pick one up later. The other was the Brake ECU not being able to talk to the HV Control ECU.

    So we went ahead and ordered the HV Control from Ebay. That should hopefully get us to being able to start the car and really evaluate it.

    While testing the ABS issue i discovered that the 01 repair manual either had a horrible typo, or the 02 dropped some ground wires. So i got a TIS acct and downloaded 1298 files. Should be everything I would ever want for an 02.
     
  4. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    I'm amazed you don't have HV battery codes currently. 270v on a Gen 1 is effectively dead, with an average of only 7.1 volts per module. It's probably safe to assume several are in the low 6 range. It sounds like an interesting project. Geez, I hate trying to fix wiring modifications/problems on previously owned cars...on a side note...I have quite a selection of Gen 1 HV battery parts if you have the need.
     
    gothstone and Brian in Tucson like this.
  5. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    TMR-JWAP - Will definitely hit you up for modules and main relay if we referb the battery ourselves! We really haven't concentrated on the battery much for 2 reasons. First, as stated before we don't want to throw any more time or money at this than necessary until we at least confirm it's worth salvaging. Secondly we are concerned with say getting in the HV control, having to put the battery back together, and throwing codes because we have some modules charged higher than others.

    Once we get in the HV control I would also be amazed if we didn't get battery codes! Right now, lacking any evidence to the contrary, we are operating on the assumption that the battery ECU relays it's data through the HV ECU to the ECM and that's why we can't see them. Interestingly my torque app will sometimes show values for block voltage and resistance, but only for a few blocks and the data is random so we think that's just artifact data. The Multi-function display shows 1 bar for the battery, but god only knows where its getting that guess.
    From what I've found per module voltage would be high at 8v, nominal at 7.2v, and dead at 6v. If I'm averaging 7.1v I'm sure I have some dead, but I wouldn't guess that the pack is a goner just yet. I also haven't looked close enough to tell how much mess is leak vs corrosion and where its all coming from. It is at least clear that whoever rebuilt the pack put no effort into neatening anything. It's also important to note that the car sat with the previous owner for at least a month, and I'm personalty guessing more like 3. So its had some time self discharge. If we can get to the car to READY, I can force charge the battery pack with the ICE and see what kind of charge it can get to.

    Once we get to it, the plan is to label each module, dismantle the pack, and clean each module. Anyone have suggestions on that? Haven't found any good info. Then we will use a a HTRC C150 to record voltage, internal resistance (maybe at per cell level? manual sucks), and perform and record load volt drop test per module. At this point we will have excellent information on which modules are toast and can make decisions on buying replacement modules or buying a complete pack and selling off our remaining good modules.

    Either way, for any cell that doesn't go straight to the recycling center, we will cycle charge each module. Charge till voltage doesn't rise, discharge down to 4.8v, charge till voltage doesn't rise, discharge down to 3.6v, charge till voltage doesn't rise, discharge down to 3v, charge till voltage doesn't rise. Then we will record internal resistance, peak module voltage, re-run load voltage drop test.

    If we stick with our pack we will go through the same process with any modules we buy, assemble the pack with the strongest modules in the center working our way to the weakest on the outside while trying to put the most similar modules together in blocks, and then fully balance the modules.with a parallel connect over a few days. I have a pair of large ultra sonic cleaners that normal runs a vinegar mix anyway, so that ought to do an excellent job of cleaning up all the nuts and bus bars.

    It's a lot of time and effort, but my son is in college and I run my own business, so we both find our selves with a lot of odd little blocks of time that are not enough to do much of anything, but certainly enough to start another module cycle.
     
    #5 gothstone, Oct 1, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  6. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    When you have opportunity, look at the serial numbers on the case and on the modules. You can determine the manufacture date of the modules by the first 4 digits. First 2 numbers are the day of the month (1-31) third digit is the month (1-9, X,Y,Z) and the fourth digit is the year. I always remember the module year codes as L=2010, so 2002 would be D, 2003 would be E, etc.

    The case code is slightly different (by 2 years), so "L" on the case is 2008.

    It makes it easy to see what is original and what has been replaced.
     
  7. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    Good idea, I should have thought of that! Complete data set attached. Short answers are:
    All but one module are from April 11th of 2002, the oddball has a huge burn on the top and is from Jan 30 2002. Casing is from May 30 2002. So it looks like they replaced 1 module and rearranged the rest based on their voltage readings at the time, which they wrote on each module. I checked voltage at each module, each block, and total pack. At a min we would need to replace 5 modules with matching gen 1.5. Screw that!
    Still, I'm hoping this will have enough power to spin up the ICE and that the ECUs won't lock it out from trying.
     

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  8. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    Long over due for some updates. We got the new HV ECU, no luck. Turns out we were not getting power to it or to the battery ECU. Got in a replacement main relay, did a quick and crappy charge on the modules, and got the think to kinda start up. It spun the ice for a about 3 sec then went nuts with battery errors the way we always expected. I can now get useful info from drprius and techstream. So now we are on to battery. But the kid really wants to mess with KOH refill and charge/discharge cycle resuscitation of cells. Before someone freaks, the "kid" is 19, and I have a pretty good chem background. So we know how dangerous it can be, and how to do it safely. He has far higher hopes of it really working than I do. I'm trying to push for getting some kind of functional pack in the car so it can be moved easily, and maybe he can play with the old cells.
     
  9. ronlewis

    ronlewis Active Member

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    like
     
  10. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    Man did I get a sweet deal! Picked up a 2012 Gen 1.5 complete battery out of a side swipe and 4 ok-ish rims with 4 brand new tires for $600.Tires ours came with were crap. Got the battery in, and now we get codes P3101 (with subcode 205), P3191, and C0279. Cleaned the MAF, but no luck. It will run (poorly) while I spray ether into the throttle body. It only has 2 to 3 gallons in the tank, so tomorrow we will add another 5 and see if a fuel level sensor gets unstuck. If not I'll go through the DTCs, and check out the fuel pump and injectors. Oil looks like shit, may go ahead and change that too. Just skimmed service manual. What's up with the stupid Macgyver rig for checking fuel pressure? Please tell me there is now a quick cheap aftermarket Tee adapter for this. Side question, are the Prius rims aluminum, magnesium, or some weird alloy? And do they have a clear coat? Just want to be sure before I restore them so I don't use the wrong thing.
     
    #10 gothstone, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    You picked up a what Gen who?

    Since your profile mentions a 2002 Gen 1, I'll say those wheels are aluminum, painted gray in the pockets, machined and clear coated on the faces.

    Later generation Prius wheels are aluminum and covered with paint.
     
  12. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    Sorry, i phrased that badly. The battery pack and module date codes are January 2012. It was pulled from a wrecked 2002. So it's a gen 1.5 unit, a newer Toyota replacement. Terminals shouldnt leak and the modules should have metal sides.
     
  13. ronlewis

    ronlewis Active Member

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    I was just going to ask about the wheels. How does one restore them? Some of mine look corroded, so I guess that's just the clear coat turning brittle? I sanded them off some, but didn't go crazy. Is that all there is too it - just sand/dremel all that off and then paint the pockets and clear coat everything?
     
  14. gothstone

    gothstone Junior Member

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    Yay, progress! I killed off P3101 and 3191 by replacing the OPN CIR relay. Now it runs longer and gives P1300, P1305, P1310, and P1315. I changed it's oil and plugs (I think they were factory!) so maybe the wires to the COP are loose. Otherwise I'm off to test everything in DI-119. New bat pack is getting low from starting the engine, may have to tear it open and charge modules soon.

    Ron - If your wheels are as bad as both my sets, then yes, that's about the best solution. Mine have aluminium oxidation coming through both the clean coat and the paint. When we have time we will sand, polish, and re-coat. I may start with aircraft paint stripper. I'm thinking black or red in the pockets would make a nice accent. :) If they aren't god awful then hitting them with Meguiar's Ultimate Compound might make a huge improvement.