Recommendations for speaker upgrade?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent @ Sep 15 2006, 11:53 AM) [snapback]320199[/snapback]</div>

I just had my local CircuitCity replace my non-JBL speakers with a pair ofPolkAudio db650 (6.25") in the rear doors, and a pair of Polk's db6500 (6.25" in the front doors plus A-pillar tweeters), and a complete DynaMat doorkit in the front, and small speaker-area kit in the rear doors. As of yet, I haven't installed an amp. Alas, the sound, to my ears, is the same.

At first anyway. The mids are definitely more apparent and the bass is much cleaner, but other than that? I'm not sure my new speakers were worth it. The DynaMat insulation has given the front doors a slightly more solid "heft" to the weight of the doors, and people I've talked to swear it helps with road noise (not that a Prius needs it) and with heating/cooling. So that alone may have helped the sound, and in particular, the bass.

Now I'm looking at installing the smallest possible four-channel amplifier, hopefully under the front passenger seat. Many of the "professionals" and friends I asked recommended that I put the amp in with the speakers; I wanted to see if the brand-name speakers alone would give better sound. Guess not. So I'll have to see what the amp does for me now. I definitely don't want to put it in the back, I need that space often. So I'm hoping my boys won't kick the amp if I put it under a front seat!

Good luck with your system, I hope you have better luck!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent @ Sep 15 2006, 02:53 PM) [snapback]320199[/snapback]</div>

The Kappa 63.7i is a 3-way speaker (woofer, midrange, tweeter). The 62.7i is a 2-way speaker (woofer, tweeter). In general, a 3-way speaker should be better than a 2-way speaker, since each speaker has a smaller range of frequencies to reproduce. I believe the 6010cs is more of an entry-level speaker. All of the above are 6 1/2" speakers which will fit just fine.

For the front speakers, you will need component speakers (where the woofer and tweeter are completely separate and installed in different locations). Each component speaker set comes with a crossover to split the music between the speakers. Both speakers will be installed in the front doors in the factory locations. The Kappa 60.7cs is the equivalent component speaker. The woofers are the same as the other Kappas, but it has separate tweeters to fit up near the dash. The tweeters are also sold separately as Infinity Kappa 10.7t.

If you have basic wiring skills, you can do it yourself. Search for "speaker relacement guide" by ~sparky~. It's excellent and tells you everything you need to know for the rear speakers. I have not seen one for the front speakers, but I took some photos when I did mine and maybe I'll be able to post them sometime if there is interest (just dropped off the film).

I also did double layers of Dynamat Xtreme in the doors. I'm not sure how much that cuts down on road noise but you can certainly tell the difference just rapping your knuckles on the doors - it's now a solid thud instead of the hollow ringing.

There are many choices of speaker brands and models. I chose the Infinity Kappas because they seemed to be the most commonly recommended. Others will have other opinions which may be just as good. Just get those factory speakers out of there. You're listening to cardboard. Almost any quality aftermarket speakers will be better. I noticed a HUGE difference in sound clarity with mine.

Incidentally, I bought my speakers through amazon and the Dynamat from ebay. Hope this helps.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA @ Sep 15 2006, 08:08 PM) [snapback]320306[/snapback]</div>

Hay,, PA, did you do your yourself? or did you take it somewhere in Raleigh. If so, please tell me where and what it cost if you dont mind. thanks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rangerdavid @ Sep 15 2006, 08:34 PM) [snapback]320320[/snapback]</div>

I did it myself. The speakers were easy. The Dynamat complicated it a bit more, but it's still a do-it-yourself project if you're so inclined. It just takes longer.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(papawithprius @ Sep 15 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]320291[/snapback]</div>

These are great speakers. My brother and I installed some of these in his Subaru Impreza. Sounds much better now. Bass is deeper, highs are crisper.

Pretty much any decent speaker will sound better than the average factory setup. Sometimes, in a "Premium" system, the manufacturer actually does use some pretty good speakers, and you won't get much improvement unless you redo the WHOLE system.

Anyway, best way to decide on a speaker is to go and listen to them all yourself. Bring a couple of CD'd with you of the types of music you listen to, the more variety the better. Any good shop will let you listen to the speakers for as long as you need to decide.

Try as many as you can in one day, as it is easy to forget after a day or two. Once you get your favorite(s), listen to those again to narrow it down to one or two, and there you go.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA @ Sep 15 2006, 05:08 PM) [snapback]320306[/snapback]</div>

At typical car audio prices, 3-way speakers exist for marketing, not technical reasons. The marketing hype works too - you're proof of it

Just about every maker of decent home speakers at and below the $2500/pair price point is a 2-way (2-1/2 way being a special type of 2-way). Very few (probably less than 1%) of people own a system with speakers good enough (and expensive enough) to justify a 3-way design. Such a system would cost as much as most people's cars.

There's a good reason why the best speaker in almost every high-end car audio manufacturer's line (Focal, CDT, Diamond) is a 2-way component speaker, and not a 3-way coaxial speaker. A 6.5" woofer can extend high enough that there is no need for a driver to reproduce frequencies below that of the tweeter. Look at the $6k/pair Thiel CS3.7. Three-way design with a five inch midrange driver. Now do you think your car needs a 1" midrange and 1/2" tweeter? Maybe Jim Thiel was just cutting corners on his $6k speaker when he left out that extra driver that your $100 Kappa 63.7i has.

The 6010cs are more expensive than either of the two Kappa models you mention, so what does that make them? Also, being component speakers, they're going to be a more difficult install in the rear doors of a non-JBL system, probably beyond what most home installers would want to attempt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusenvy @ Sep 16 2006, 05:21 AM) [snapback]320466[/snapback]</div>

But it didn't work well enough for me to buy them.

I was thinking of a different model. Thanks for the correction.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusenvy @ Sep 16 2006, 04:21 AM) [snapback]320466[/snapback]</div>

i somewhat agree, but for the price i found my kappas, it wasn't much more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusenvy @ Sep 16 2006, 04:21 AM) [snapback]320466[/snapback]</div>

they are no longer listed on the infinitysystems website. the cs refers to component system, which is not just a set of 6.5" speakers, but also a pair of dome tweeters. and i believe a different crossover that is made to run both pair together. which would justify the higher price. and it being thier reference series speakers, thay are a little lower quality. not that they still aren't good speakers.

current prices.
kappa63.7i $95, kappa62.7i $75, kappa10.7t $55

ref6010cs $95, i believe this is a pair of ref6012 ($44) and a pair of ref1011t ($33 different store)
also i think the kappa version of this is kappa60.7cs ($139)

basicly it all depends how much your wanting to spend. and if possible always listen to them first. some people won't notice a big enough difference between two speakers to make the more expensive one worth it, some will.

 

I would suggest spending an amount of money on your speakers that correlates to the amount of time you spend in your car. Since I spend a minimum of about 2-3 hours each day driving, the stereo is crucial. Keep that in mind.

Now you also need to balance that with how well you can hear the differences in speakers. Listening to a pair of speakers mounted in a wall at the local electronics store is not an accurate representation of how they will sound in your car, but if all of htem are similarly mounted then at least that will be minimized. So make sure you can tell a difference between the speakers. If you can't tell a difference between a $50 pair and a $500 pair, then it makes no sense to buy the more expensive ones. However, if you listen and the $500 pair just blows the other ones out of the water, then it may be worth it...




As for the 3-way (and even 4-way) speakers, they are really not worth it. There is not really any benefit to it. A well designed speaker will have the minimum of drivers necessary to reproduce accurate sound. there are always compromises in splitting the sound between the different drivers. To do that really well costs a LOT of money. Get a decent 2-way or components. A competently designed set will outerperform any 3-way speaker.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kDB @ Sep 16 2006, 04:35 AM) [snapback]320472[/snapback]</div>

Actually, they are. Most people can figure out that 6010cs refers to the Reference series 6010cs. It says "6010cs" on the box, and that's how people list them for sale on Fleabay.

Please stop, as you don't know what you're talking about and are not contributing anything with your misinformation. The 6012i is a two-way coaxial speaker. The 6010cs component speaker consists of a separate 6.5" driver and a 1" tweeter plus crossover. There isn't a coaxial tweeter mounted on the 6.5" driver in the 6010cs, and the 6012i isn't a one-way speaker, so the 6010cs is obviously NOT made up of a pair of 6012is and a pair of 1" tweeters.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent @ Sep 15 2006, 02:53 PM) [snapback]320199[/snapback]</div>

I've got the non-JBL base system too.

Because they're 2 ohm speakers I recommend against installing the Infinity Kappa Series 62.7i, and 60.7cs 6 ½†speakers mentioned in Sparky's speaker replacement guide. I installed those speakers and now wish I'd used 4 ohm speakers to replace the original 4 ohm speakers.

By not using 4 ohm replacements I don't know if the disappointing resulting sound is because the head unit's crap or because it wasn't designed to work with 2 ohm speakers.

Nothing against the speakers, they do sound better than the originals, but the sound is definitely lacking something and since I'm not an audiophile, if my ears hear the lack it's not a subtle subjective problem.

Anyone have some 4 ohm speakers they can loan me for testing?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(klamut @ Sep 18 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]321479[/snapback]</div>

From what I have been told, it is OK to use 2 ohm speakers in this application. The difference is that they'll be a little louder at a given volume level due to the lower resistance (E=iR I believe, those who know please correct me if I'm wrong). From my rudimentary understanding, it is possible to damage an amp if it is run at impedances lower than what it was designed for under certain conditions (but apparently it's OK in this case?). Someone else can provide a more detailed (and more correct) explanation than I can. Regarding the speaker impedances, I believe the JBL system uses 2 ohm & 6 ohm. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is in the head unit (limited specs I saw stated 45W (max?) vs. 40W for the non-JBL).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(klamut @ Sep 18 2006, 10:42 PM) [snapback]321479[/snapback]</div>

I'd need to know what you hear is lacking. I know the bottom end is definitely lacking, and if that's a concern you're going to need a subwoofer. The specs for these speakers say they're rated down to 45 Hz which means you're missing a lot of the low bass (hence a subwoofer). But then again it's no worse than the factory speakers.

Also, you will not get the full performance of the speakers without adding a more powerful amp. At lower volume levels, though, this will not be a concern.

By disappointing sound, what are you comparing it to? It's definitely better than the factory speakers. But it's not going to be anywhere near a decent home system, either.

It all comes down to how much money you want to put into it and how high on your priority list it is. At least you've improved it some. To improve it more is going to cost more money. Just replacing speakers is not magically going to give you perfect sound if you still have the factory amp & thin wiring. But, it might be enough of an improvement.

I am not an electrical engineer, but this is my understanding of the situation. Hope this helps.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Soylent @ Sep 19 2006, 11:24 AM) [snapback]321634[/snapback]</div>

Your best bet is to just go to various places and start auditioning speakers. That is the best way to find a good set of speakers.

Keep in mind that what sounds great to one person may only be mediocre to another, and vice versa. Everyone hears differently.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA @ Sep 19 2006, 03:37 PM) [snapback]321809[/snapback]</div>

They are quieter than originals at a given volume number on the MFD display; not an issue; I simply turn it up to the higher numbers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PA @ Sep 19 2006, 03:37 PM) [snapback]321809[/snapback]</div>

The bass is much better than the original Prius speakers, no complaint there and the treble much cleaner and precise. But on all CD's I play I hear the lack of instruments that I'm expecting to be prominent from past listenings at home or previous car system. The instruments are not gone, they are noticeably muted or far in the background; it's disappointing after spending $230+/- for new speakers. I'm thinking of buying or burning an audio test CD to see if it's a particular frequency range or what.

There's an amplifier term I've read about, "2 ohm stable", that tells whether the amplifier is designed to work same with 2 ohm as with 4 ohm speakers. No way of knowing if the non-JBL amp is 2 ohm stable; If I had it to do over I'd buy 4 ohm speakers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(klamut @ Sep 19 2006, 04:52 PM) [snapback]321949[/snapback]</div>

I'm very surprised you don't think the Kappa tweeters in your sail panels are a huge improvement over the crappy JBL tweeters. In fact, I'd suspect something was wrong with the install. I can't imagine what an installer might have screwed up though. If it was a JBL system I'd suspect using the woofer signal as a full-range input on the crossover for the front speakers, but I can't imagine how the installer could have screwed up the install on a non-JBL vehicle to get the effect you're hearing.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(klamut @ Sep 19 2006, 07:52 PM) [snapback]321949[/snapback]</div>

Have you checked your treble/bass settings for CD playback? Make sure those haven't been turned down accidentally, etc. If that's not it I'd agree with priusenvy about possibly a problem with the installation.

 

klamut,
I'm a little confused. You mentioned that you have the non-JBL base system.
In that case, you do not have an outboard amplifier, you are simply running full range
signal coming from the factory receiver out to your factory speakers.
In the front doors, that signal goes first to the tweeter (into a capacitor & into the tweet) and
from there jumps off to he mid-bass driver down in the bottom of the door. My understanding
is that this configuration presents a 4 ohm load to the receiver.
The rear outputs of the receiver simply go straight to the mid-bass drivers in the rear doors (also 4 ohm, I believe). The net effect is that your receiver sees 4 ohm x 4 channels.

The 2 ohm business doesn't come into play unless you're dealing with the premium system and it's JBL
amplifier and drivers.

If you've replaced the factory front speakers with components, then hopefully your installer took the
leads coming into your front tweets and used that as input for the compontnt cross-over. From there they should have used the woofer outs on the cross-over to feed the component mid-bass drivers and the tweeter outputs to feed the aftermarket tweets. This configuration should also present the factory receiver with a 4 ohm load on the fronts. The rears should have gone the same way & resulted also in a 4 ohm stereo load at the receiver.

So I'm not sure where the difference in impedance comes into play.

If you're talking about the JBL system, that's a whole different story.

If it's set up like I've described above, the the sound should be noticibly better.
The frequency response would certainly be different with the aftermarket setup, and thus what you hear
is different (not necessarily because of impedance)....could also be the efficiency of the drivers compared to the factory ones.

Make sure you have the system properly wired, then I'd suggest adding an amplifier (if you are in fact running just off the factory receiver now). The difference in frequency response can be offset (to achieve a more desirable sound) by adding the amplifier, adding some form of equalization, or both.

Hope this helps,
Matt

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusenvy @ Sep 19 2006, 08:50 PM) [snapback]321980[/snapback]</div>

My post didn't complain about the treble or bass, I said the treble was better.
I can't complain too much to the installer: it was me.