Has the official explanation of 9/11 fallen apart?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Sep 21 2006, 05:54 AM) [snapback]322749[/snapback]</div>

You're so wrong! Global warming is caused by Speedo! They're trying to make the planet so hot that the only bearable clothing will be tiny swimsuits. Coming soon, the Speedo Loincloth.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]323047[/snapback]</div>

It a Jewish conspiracy - Your a genius - You figured it out - Bingo - Give that man a cigar

I am surprised you could even spell Mossad - you would not even know an agent if you saw one, have NO evidence at all and you implicate them. cool

Profits for lease holders - A Jewish guy - you are good

Insider traders - another euphamism for Jews - you are getting even better

Securities Industries - another term strongly associated with Jews - start getting that yellow cloth ready

Sympathy for Israel - like it ever had any - getting the scissors and thread

I am glad your understanding is still evolving - let me know when its done and what "solutions" you might offer up - can't wait. You burn all those books you read? Hey, and you cant explain some basic physics stuff - stop the presses. Let me know your understanding on "Creation" and Relativity.

Are you a Democrat or what? Just want some info. A great article today on the Democratic Party and how it is becoming anti-Semitic. Funny timing I was thinking to myself.

BTW - you forgot about how all the Jews got out of the Towers before they collapsed - shame on you.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 21 2006, 04:15 PM) [snapback]323033[/snapback]</div>

A meeting of the minds! Can't wait to read the Cliff Notes on this one - let me know when you guys come to some conclusion about 9/11. You have to admit, the Mossad angle intrigues you?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 10:45 AM) [snapback]322807[/snapback]</div>

Come on - you can come up with some other thoughts - a bright guy like you. You are so right - those towers could not have been feld by two small jet planes - and the fact they fell straight down - proof + that you are on to something. And for those security cameras - you know the only country that could interfer with security cameras and recording devices - the Mossad! Childs play for them. The Mossad was behind it so they could drag the US into getting rid of some of their biggest threats - I am sure you noodled that one. And its only been 5 years - give yourself some more time to come up with some other bright concepts - do not sell yourself short you brainiac you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 21 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]323062[/snapback]</div>

Nope. Jared and I don't agree on this one. I think Bush is evil enough, but far too stupid to have pulled off such a thing. The only "conspiracy" I see is the rather unsuccessful attempt to conceal how incompetently he responded after the attack.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(floydenheimer @ Sep 21 2006, 01:52 PM) [snapback]323055[/snapback]</div>

No. Global warming is caused by a reduction in the number of pirates.

 

Conspiracy theories are always trouble.

But, I will always find this more troubling: When that plane that hit the Pentagon struck, it conveniently struck the only wing that had 0 members of the Department of Defense present in it. It was closed for renovations that week. Not one member of the Department of Defense was killed in the attacks. This is the same Department that has now been proven to have Iraq invasion plans drawn up before 9/11. Those same invasion plans could never have been executed if 9/11 didn't happen - we all know American voters would not have been OK with it. If anyone gained from 9/11, it was the people in that building. And that plane just so happened to avoid killing a single person in it?

That amazing coincidence is alarming. On the day that 9/11 happened, when I heard that tidbit of news I was very, very concerned, and I'm yet to hear a thing that sets me at ease about that very strange coincidence.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 10:45 AM) [snapback]322807[/snapback]</div>

Its ok, take your medication. OMG whats really scary is there people out there who think this way. All the documentrys Ive watched explain how & why the towers fell. see logical to me.. :mellow:

I'll bet if someone left one of those spy camera boxes outside your door you would think the Goverment was watching you maybe its the CIA :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 22 2006, 12:59 AM) [snapback]323252[/snapback]</div>

What do you think of his conspiracy theory?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SoopahMan @ Sep 22 2006, 05:50 AM) [snapback]323285[/snapback]</div>

no redundancy - shocking! What would ever happen if you won lotto? Would that be a conspiracy too :lol:

BTW - how were all the "facts" you mentioned above vetted out?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]323047[/snapback]</div>

How's the thinking going? Any more fact based evidence you want to present to everyone in writing about your conspiracy theory? Finish the Protocols of the Elders of Zion yet - or should I ask how many times have you read it? I called (actually forwarded them this post) the Mossad by the way, they have an office downtown - they should be contacting you soon :lol: They wanted to know if you have a pilots license, speak Arabic, and originate from a Middle East country ruled by a mullah?

Come on out and play for a while today - you know tonight starts our New Year - lets celebrate it together.

 

dberman, list what you find suspect in what I said, and I'll point you to the facts. I'll take 2 stabs here:

Empty Pentagon wing under renovation was struck, no one in it harmed:
http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon.html
The beauty of that page is it's a page busy debunking conspiracy theories about 9/11 - even they concur, the wing struck was closed for renovations that week, it was empty.

Iraq plans for attack prior to 9/11:
Although you can find plenty of papers discussing, and even quoting Rumsfeld on this one, ironically even the PNAC themselves still have their archives up from before Bush was elected:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmidd...st2000-1997.htm
I point you to "How to Attack Iraq," and "A Way to Oust Saddam." I leave it to you to Google the names on that page and notice how many are now in the Bush Administration. For example, although Robert Kagan is ironically both writing about war and a member of the "Endowment for Peace," his wife works for the current Vice President.

Google is your friend.

By the way - the towers collapsing is explicable. Shortly after the strike I heard an interview with the main architect who designed the Twin Towers, and he admitted that those towers were designed to withstand a strike by a fully-fueled jumbojet of the '60s - a jet that was unfortunately smaller than either of the planes of 9/11 that hit those towers. And, to make matters worse, they had both very recently left Boston's Logan Airport, filled to the brim with fuel. To again "use the facts of the other side," this conspiracy theory site admits the planes were larger than what the towers were designed for:
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/evidence.html
It attempts to suggest that they weren't much larger so that shouldn't matter much - but those planes are literally filled with jet fuel. Even a small increase in size is a lot of extra jet fuel, and that stuff is powerful. I listened to the architect himself say on NPR, anything larger than the designed tolerances, fully fueled, should be expected to cause catastrophic damage to the towers - and it did.

See, dberman? I'm not wildly biased afterall.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Sep 21 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]323047[/snapback]</div>

can't come out and play today?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 22 2006, 11:25 AM) [snapback]323382[/snapback]</div>

you are the only one playing here

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 22 2006, 04:24 AM) [snapback]323301[/snapback]</div>

I think it's a mish-mash of coincidence and invention. I think that some of the supporting statements were invented out of whole cloth, and others do not support the conclusion. I also think it's inevitable that such theories will arise and that some people will believe them.

I'm reminded of UFO theories. I read about one that presented a number of details about an observation, and concluded that there was no other possible conclusion but that there had been a UFO. The argument was very well constructed and would have been convincing had the conclusion not been so unlikely. Later, a sober person investigated and found the explanation was a lighthouse. Under the right (but rare) conditions, the original observations could be repeated, and it could be seen that it was the lighthouse. The UFOlogists moved on to other "sightings." But in this case, the event is so complex and far-reaching, that it will never be laid to rest. If, for example, it were to be conclusively proved that there were no explosives planted in the buildings ahead of time, the proponents would simply drop that assertion and maintain their theory on the basis of other elements of it.

On the other hand, bin Laden was in the pay of the CIA when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan, and I believe al Qaeda has its origins in that conflict, so that the CIA is indirectly responsible, at least in part, for al Qaeds's subsequent terrorism. History is full of cases where we've supported nasty people and it's come back to bite us.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SoopahMan @ Sep 22 2006, 05:50 AM) [snapback]323285[/snapback]</div>

To be clear, there WERE Department of Defense people killed with the American Airlines flight slammed into the E-ring of the Pentagon. The senior officer killed was an acquaintance of mine.

125 people were killed on the ground at the Pentagon. An additional 59 perished aboard American Airlines Flight #77. Approximately 63 people were wounded/injured in the attack.

One thing about conspiracy theories. Any conspiracy theory assumes a degree of hyper-competence on the part of those involved. Having worked in the Pentagon for the last 4 ½ years, I can report that the Pentagon is just another office building, and those of us who work there are no different than you. In fact, the Pentagon, in my experience, represents a more accurate cross-section of America unlike that which you'd routinely find in industry. The Pentagon is not a secret society that requires blood oaths to go through the door, nor is it a haven for the super smart and cagey. You find geniuses and dolts. Hard workers and slackers.

Nearly 22,000 people work in the Pentagon on any given day. Do you honestly believe that the administration – ANY administration – is able to assemble the best and brightest, swear each and everyone of them - without exception - to the ultimate degree of secrecy which is never, ever breached?

Understanding that my ownership of a 2005 Prius automatically qualifies me to be among the best and brightest, I promise that I have no other prerequisites for joining such a group.

We’re all just regular people. 125 of these regular people died on September 11th, among them, someone with whom I socialized and admired as a leader. Some of the injured continue to be personal friends.

Facts are facts. Please use them on occasion. It works so much better than conjecture or rumor.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dan-Wolfe @ Sep 22 2006, 09:10 AM) [snapback]323417[/snapback]</div>

Shucks, there's always a spoilsport in every crowd, wanting to take all the FUN away. :angry:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 22 2006, 12:00 PM) [snapback]323410[/snapback]</div>

Ya'll dont fall over or anything, but I agree with Daniels above statement..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dan-Wolfe @ Sep 22 2006, 12:10 PM) [snapback]323417[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Dan_Wolfe...That Officer was a great american, as was his SGM...I was under his command, although five miles away at the time...I'm out of this thread...GMAB

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dan-Wolfe @ Sep 22 2006, 09:10 AM) [snapback]323417[/snapback]</div>

An excellent example of my point: The conspiracy folks come up with the (false) statement that nobody was killed at the Pentagon on 9/11. The statement was apparently invented out of whole cloth. Who knows who invented it, or whether it arose gradually as a rumor changed in the repitition until it aquired a form suitable to their purposes. It gets repeated, and people who read only the conspiracy theorists will believe it and repeat it to defend their theory.

But nobody who believes the theory will change his mind upon reading Dan-Wolf's statement. They'll just say that there's still plenty of evidence.

Here again, there's a parallel with the UFOlogists: It takes ten minutes to invent a bogus UFO report, and it may take weeks or months to investigate and debunk it. And before the debunking is complete, there will be a hundred other bogus reports to debunk.

In this case, there are so many assertions for the conspiracy theory that to answer them all would be a mammoth task. And in the time it takes to answer one assertion, they can invent ten others.

W is callous enough, and hate-filled enough, to engineer the deaths of Americans if he thinks it would advance his political fortunes. But he and his managers and his subordinates are far too stupid and bumbling to pull it off.

 

Dan-Wolfe, I'm sorry to hear you lost someone in those attacks. That's truly the first I've heard of a death toll inside the Pentagon; I'd heard the people in the plane died (obviously) and people outside died (sensible), but I'd heard the wing was empty, closed for renovations. It sounds as though it was closed, but some people were present anyway?

As for conspiracy theory... I don't think I'm ready to go as far as a conspiracy theory. I just find the circumstances suspicious. I don't have wild visions of everyone in the Pentagon quietly tapping their fingers together like Mr Burns as they await a plane to crash in the side of the building they all know not to go to. I do however have suspicions about a few high figures at the Pentagon who wanted to be in Iraq, specifically said an American catastrophe needed to happen in order to get us in there, and whose entire careers depended on us either going to war again before they died of old age, or just living in peace - boring old peace. If anybody benefited most from 9/11, it's them. Anyone could have told you the Taliban would be thoroughly dismantled if Bin Laden's 9/11 plot was successful had they heard about it beforehand - and Bin Laden was already famous. He hardly won anything. But Rumsfled gained power he's wanted all his life. That's suspicious to me. I don't have some grand theory around it, but it is suspicious.

As for hyper-competency - to be honest, I would've told you Bush couldn't win in 2004. It's impossible. But his political team was amazingly competent (and perhaps his opponent's team was rather incompetent). People are sometimes wildly successful. And we have Racketeering laws because conspiracies do sometimes happen. So I agree that conspiracy theories tend to be bunk, but if that's all you need to call off suspicions, I'd say you're ignoring your own sensibility.