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Radio active brine

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Trollbait, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Talking about the brine that comes up with the oil and gas. It can have a high concentration of radio isotopes, one of which is radium. Apparently, no one thought this needed regulating, or to tell those working with it. And among the other new things learned today, some places use this brine for road spray in winter.

    Beyond Fracking: Oil-and-Gas Industry's Toxic Waste Is Radioactive - Rolling Stone
    That might be tl;dr. This is a synopsis.
    The Oil Industry’s Radioactive Secret | OilPrice.com
     
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  2. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Don't most of the naturally forming radium isotopes have half lives less than a decade? A few rads for fossil fuels? Such a deal !!

    .
     
  3. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Doesn't really make much difference at this point.
    Even if there was overwhelming evidence of that causing bad things to happen........the current Moron in Chief would do away with those regs anyway.
     
  4. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Ra-223, 11.4 days. Ra-224, 3.6 days. Ra-226, 1600 years. Ra-228, 5.7 years. All of these are decay products of the naturally occurring uranium and thorium.

    Typical amounts in rock and soil are about 1 ppt (part per trillion). Apparently this translates to 1 pCi / gram (picoCuries per gram). EPA limits are 5 pCi/liter for drinking water, 5 pCi/gram in the top six inches of uranium and thorium mill tailings, and 15 pCi/g deeper in the pile.

    Public Health Statement - Radium

    Curie - Wikipedia
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    "The most common isotopes are radium-226 and radium-228, and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission requires industrial discharges to remain below 60{pCi/L} for each. Four of Peter’s samples registered combined radium levels above 3,500, and one was more than 8,500."
    from the Rolling Stone article

    The use of well brine for deicing roads and controlling road dust on unpaved ones was halted last year in Pennsylvania, though there are bills to re-allow it being considered.
     
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  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    & a few picoCuries (in the air) per liter of the decomposing off-gas ..... radon .... which most people living in such exposure regions don't even seem to give a rip about it, even though it's absorption is blamed as being the 3rd largest cause of lung cancer behind smoking & 2nd-hand smoke.
    .
     
    #6 hill, Jan 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  7. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Radon in homes is considered a leading cause of lung cancer. Rutgers did a risk study years ago showed nobody in NJ cared about radon that despite relatively high radon in their homes, but they were outraged about a plan to put a small amount watch-dial waste of radon/radium in a landfill, which would have near zero impact on them. So we don't want anybody forcing something on us.

    Obviously there should always be proper waste treatment/disposal and hygiene safety care.
    But the gov't is always trying to encourage small business which basically means lowering safety/regulation bar for smaller firms otherwise only the big companies with deep pockets could play the game. The reason much of this waste is underground injected is probably this among other things. Anytime you have extractive mining of the earth chances are this could be an issue of sorts. And historically mining has had some shall we say different treatment from haz waste regs.
     
    #7 wjtracy, Jan 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  8. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

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    The area is grew up in Ohio, pretty much all the house basements/below ground floors had radon detectors + forced air ventilation. I also believe that housing code forbid bedrooms in below ground rooms.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I really need to test my home for radon.
     
  10. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

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    If you're in a potentially high radon zone, yes you should. Here's the EPA map for Radon risk: EPA Map of Radon Zones | Radon | US EPA
     

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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'm just going to assume that red is bad.
    (Had to go to the interactive map for definitions of the zones.)
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    In the fluorescent room of a local mineral show, there was uranium crystal plates glowing a pale green.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I've generally understood natural Uranium to not be a radiation hazard. The natural decay rate of the major isotope is so low that it doesn't amount to much compared to other natural sources. And the faster decaying minor isotope comprises a very tiny fraction (currently 0.72%, declining over geological time). Instead, Uranium is a chemical hazard, nasty to the kidneys.

    According to its CDC Toxic Substances datasheet:
    "Natural and depleted uranium have the identical chemical effect on your body.
    The health effects of natural and depleted uranium are due to chemical effects and not to radiation."

    However, I believe they missed the primary health effect of depleted uranium. People are most likely to encounter it as a missile fired from a military force engaged in warfare, and its kinetic energy will cause physical trauma in a similar manner as bullets made of other materials. After that, since it can burn, people can inhale or ingest residues that cause the standard chemical toxicity.

    Enriched uranium is a different matter. It has much more of the higher decay rate isotope, so has greater radioactivity. And it becomes vastly worse if it has ever been used for anything it is intended for, which creates very nasty synthetic byproducts and contaminants.
     
    #14 fuzzy1, Feb 2, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  15. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Perhaps historically true? Keep in mind that rather a lot of such ammunition was expended by US forces in the middle east, Iraq in particular, between 1990 and the present. Logically there will be (or has been) a point where the greater threat is in finding it lying on the ground, breathing it when dust is disturbed, using products manufactured from contaminated earth etc. I have no idea whether we've passed the point where the residual waste threat is greater than the potential target threat but I recognize that it is possible.
     
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  16. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    Road De-Icing Fluids May Contain Unhealthy Chemicals - Scientific American

    Nobody was doing anything about it before he was in office either.
     
  17. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Scattering plain old "safe" salt chunks all over the road wasn't exactly doing the ecosystem any favors either.

    But sadly the economy wasn't built to tolerate snow days.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    In @tochatihu link, I stumbled across the fact that that original Fiestaware and other porcelain and stoneware glazes used uranium for some colors. Fiesta had their uranium supply taken by the government during WWII. They all switched to depleted uranium, which may have been used into the '70s.

    But environmental and health protections that were in place for other things have been rolled back under this administration.

    Back to OT, the long article names a brand of liquid deicer sold by the jug at the local home improvement store made from well brine for your own use.
     
  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    There's a local character out my way who takes delight in setting up a massive display of Fiestastuff at the local fairs and the like, complete with a vintage geiger counter to demonstrate the finishes.
     
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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'm getting the new stuff for myself, but have seen some lovely older. Didn't know about the uranium though. While the original red was the main user, the metal was also in the cream white. Going beyond Fiesta, it could be in nearly any color pottery of the time.